Transcript:
*We apologize for any typos, misspellings or incorrect grammar. Our transcript is auto-generated by software that’s trying its best, just like all of us.*
Heather: Welcome to the Milk Minute Podcast everybody.
Maureen: Hey guys. We have a very special guest I’m so excited about today.
Heather: Today we are interviewing my best friend, Abigail Miller, who is also my Chief Operating Officer at Breastfeeding for Busy Moms.
And I’ve talked about her a little bit on the podcast, which has been very funny for her because sometimes patients come in and they’re like, oh, I know you from the pod, and she’s like, what do you say about me on there? So Abigail, thanks for being here.
Abigail: Hi. Thanks for having me. I’m so, so honored. Thank you, Heather.
Thank you, Maureen. This is what a dream come true.
Maureen: Well, don’t worry, you’re already famous with all of our fans, so whether you
Heather: know it or not,
Abigail: love it.
Maureen: But we’re gonna talk about being child free and supporting friends who have children, especially friends who are breastfeeding today. Before we do that, we are really behind on thanking patrons.
So first, I wanna thank you patrons for your patience.
Heather: Yes. And then we will thank you. Yes. Thank you. So big shout out today to new patrons, Chelsea Carey, Kenzie Bickham, Julia Gorman. Rachel. Abigail, you’re good at this? Yeah. B U E C H
Abigail: E.
Maureen: Bueche. That’s what I would say too. Rachel Busch. Let us know,
Heather: Rachel, that was wrong.
And Hailey Ryan, thank you all so much and we do actually have a question today. Oh, good.
Maureen: Tell me about it.
Heather: Okay, so this is actually a question for you, Maureen. Oh, okay. The co-sleeping queen. That is my title. I called you. Thank you. So this is from our patron Deanna. And Deanna says my eight month old co sleeps with us and I’m so happy with how much more sleep we all get as compared to when we had her in the bedside bassinet. Whenever she stirs a little in the night and roots around, I stick a boob in her mouth and she dream feeds herself right back into sleep.
As she starts to get older and we prepare for hopefully a new pregnancy next spring. How did you handle transitioning to other methods of getting your cos sleepers to go back to bed? She doesn’t take a pacifier and selfishly I’m very reliant on the boob because it means she never fully wakes up at night. Yeah. Thank you so much for your help, Heather.
I’m excited to hear if you try co-sleeping with the new member of your family.
Maureen: Okay. This is a hard one cuz like there’s no one way to do this. To be totally honest, when I was transitioning both the kids, if they were before they weaned I just breastfeed them to sleep in their new bed. And then honestly, I’m like, by that time my husband knows that I’m so done, I might like murder the next person I see.
So he then responds to everything after that to his best ability. We know it’s not gonna be perfect. They will cry, it’s fine. Sometimes the kids have surprised us and they’re just like, oh, okay, it’s daddy, whatever. I’m not gonna ask for milk because dad doesn’t have that. And then they just go to sleep and sometimes he sleeps with them in their new bed.
Sometimes they freak out and cry for a while, and then he would say, okay, that’s no big deal. Like either mom will come in with you or we’ll go in with mom. But we did mostly try to say, okay, like if you need someone sleeping with you, it’s gonna happen in your bed. Mm-hmm. And we’re not going in mom’s bed anymore.
Mm-hmm. And then, you know, but we’re not starting the night out that way. Like whether you go to sleep with a book or a snuggle or some booby, like you’re gonna be sleeping on your own for the first portion. Sometimes they just sleep through the fucking night and you’re like, holy shit. That was unexpected.
And sometimes they wake up a whole bunch and it sucks. But that’s gonna be the case. Whether or not you were bed sharing, no matter how old your kid is, they’re unpredictable, it’s neurological, whatever. But that worked for us pretty well. Both have adjusted pretty well to dealing with dad at night instead of mom.
After a few weeks, to be honest, my oldest would still come into bed with us. Almost every night at like four or 5:00 AM for a couple years after he was in his own bed. But that was fine. I was like, whatever, I, if I can sleep soundly till 4:00 AM that’s fine. And then he randomly, literally the night his sister was born just didn’t do that anymore.
He’s like, well, guess I’m out. And I, when did I transition Lyra to her own bed? Like a year old. I was like, it was earlier with her. I was like, get
Heather: these,
Maureen: and she was ready, more ready. She was, she was like a much more independent sleeper and she was like, in fact, you’re keeping me up. Right, exactly. And yeah, it like within a week Ivan was pretty good with all her wake up.
Some nights she’s still up all night, but he doesn’t come get me, so I’m happy with that.
Heather: That’s nice. I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of variation though, where like, husbands can’t stop getting you. Mm-hmm. You know, but they’re like, I’m overwhelmed. So maybe having a whole discussion beforehand about expectations for like, when I say you are up, I mean, I.
You’re up. Mm-hmm. Don’t wake me up. We don’t both need to be up. That defeats the purpose, right? Yeah. Because I mean, I’m always into like, let’s prevent fighting.
Maureen: Absolutely. And like my husband and I had an agreement basically when the kids were little. I just dealt with it all and didn’t really wake him up because he is useless at 2:00 AM just useless.
You wake him up and he’s like totally discombobulated, doesn’t know what’s going on. Takes like an hour to wake up, you know? And I was like, this is stupid. Now I’m dealing with two babies at night. So, so our agreement, you know, had been, I deal with them until the early hours of the morning. He takes them out of the room, then he’s like fully awake.
So it was just like, okay, time to switch. You know, you’re gonna deal with most of the night wake ups. If you need backup, I’m there. And that worked for us. But yes, we had very clear communication.
Heather: Yeah. And as for me, I don’t know what I’m gonna do yet. I am like very undecided Yeah. On a lot of things.
And I think I might just need to meet my kid, like I might set up for any scenario and like, just meet this child and see how it goes.
Maureen: Right. And like we talked about with our co-sleeping episodes, you’re gonna be prepared for accidental co-sleeping. Oh yeah. Or intentional co-sleeping and. You know, bassinet or crib, whichever’s gonna work.
We have all of it. Yeah, you have everything. So just make it all ready and like you’re gonna find out what’s easiest with that baby. Yeah,
Heather: I mean, all of our rooms are so close together, like, doesn’t matter. You literally can’t fart without hearing someone in the next room. Room. Our house is like that too, so it’s like we’re basically co-sleeping next to each other no matter what.
All right. Well let’s take a quick break to thank a sponsor and when we get back, we’re going to interview my friend Abigail, about what it’s like to be childless by choice and what that means as far as being a supportive friend. And we’re gonna ask some hard questions.
Maureen: Have you guys ever been listening to our show and thought to yourself, man, I really wanna work one-on-one
Heather: with Maureen. I do. Every day that I sit here podcasting across from you. Well, luckily
Maureen: for you and everybody at home, I offer both in-person and virtual support. Through my business and in my business.
High land birth support, I’m dedicated to mentoring you guys through your child-bearing year. So that could start with fertility all the way through pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum. I offer home birth, midwifery services, doula services, lactation support, herbal support. Anything you guys need.
Heather: You even do miscarriage support.
Absolutely, I do. That’s one of the biggest things that is so hard to find, and I think that your people that are local to you are so incredibly lucky to have this service.
Maureen: Thank you. And I just feel really happy to serve everybody and I’m so happy I can expand my services virtually as
Heather: well. Yeah, telehealth for lactation has been really important through the pandemic, and I think we just about got it perfected at this point.
So
Maureen: if you guys wanna work with me, head over to Highland birth support.com and check out
Heather: what I can offer you. That’s H I G H L A N D, birth support.com.
Maureen: Hey, welcome back everybody. Let’s hop right into this interview. This is gonna be a great episode, I think, for everyone to listen to and a good one to recommend to friends if you’re preparing for the arrival of your baby. Siblings who might not have kids yet, all of that.
Heather: Okay, Abigail, I mean, I know all about you, but can you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you identify childless child free?
Like what are we supposed to, how do we even address that? Who are you? Is it fine to say that, you know, when you introduce your yourself and people are like, do you have kids? Like, how do you handle that?
Abigail: Yeah, it’s a good question. So first, thanks again for having me. This is the thrill of, of my life.
Being on a, a lactation podcast as a non-parent is totally unexpected and really fun. So this is bringing me a lot of joy. So thank you. I’m really not particular about labels, but I know a lot of people are right. Child free by choice, right? Or childless or not a mother. Yeah, there’s a lot of different ways to identify and I’m not particularly picky about how people call.
How I am. But I will say that all of those labels come with a lot of different baggage. Mm-hmm. And background. Right. So it’s really interesting because right. Childless was the term for a very long time, so, You know, of course indicating that those of us who don’t have children are lacking Right.
In very substantial ways. And then child free tried to reclaim some of that, right? And that’s also a bit of a strange label for me because when I, I think about being child free, there’s something in that that seems to trigger a lot of parents in a mean way, right? Mm-hmm. That, that does not feel good.
That’s like, I’m child free, bitches. Like, you know, like, I’m out here having fun while you’re at home, like doing mom stuff. And that also does not encapsulate my experience or my perspective on, on this. So, you know, it’s, it’s really, it’s tough, but yeah. Not being a mother, yeah. It’s one of those hard things right?
To, to navigate that space linguistically. Yeah. And we don’t even think about that because there’s, you know, this is not something that men and male oriented folks ever think about. Right? Absolutely. We’re not like, You know, he’s child free or he’s childless? No, he’s, I’m Brad. Are you a father? Yeah.
Are you a father? What? You, you just watching your kids while you’re at this meeting, so, yeah. So part of a big part of me is just like, I don’t fucking care if men aren’t thinking about this. I don’t think about this. Oh, yeah. Right. So that’s freeing. Well, yeah. Since,
Maureen: Our listeners don’t know much about you, other than, hey, like you work with Heather, we fucking love you.
Do you think we could get a, like in you, this is the hard questions, right? These are the questions that I’m just gonna put out there. Like, maybe don’t ask this of random people without children that you meet. Definitely. But can you give us a little bit of, like, a little bit about you and your life and.
You know, the short version of how you got here to be at your age with no children working in a lactation clinic. Yeah,
Abigail: that’s an absolutely excellent question. Thank you, Maureen. So I have a really eclectic background. I have lived all already what feels like a thousand lives, and I’ve, I just feel so lucky for all of the experiences that I’ve had.
I started out when I was like in middle school and high school, I was convinced that I wanted to be the next Madeline Albright. Oh yeah. I was totally obsessed with her and Heather, love. You can tell some really, really fun stories about what a fucking nerd I was. Oh yeah. Continue to be She dressed the part I totally did.
Yes. But I, so I was. I was certain that I wanted to go into international relations and diplomacy. And this is, you know, I just, I had all of these big ideas about how I was gonna see the world and make a big difference. And you know, of course we grew up in that era too, where, you know, all of your, your parents, your teachers, your counselors, everyone’s like, you got this girl.
Like, go for it.
Maureen: Yeah. Oh yeah. The nineties and stuff, everyone was like, girl power. Mm-hmm.
Heather: You can do it. Have you thought about computer science? Yeah.
Maureen: Women in stem, but also like simultaneously doing everything to keep
Heather: us
Abigail: Yes. So that, that was my track for a long time. Mm-hmm. And I, I did my undergrad here at WVU.
Heather and I both grew up here in Morgantown and I had some really incredible professors that kind of pushed me to think about grad school. Cuz honestly I was just gonna take the foreign service exam Right. And try and go right into the State Department. And they were like, actually, maybe you wanna, maybe you wanna go to grad school first?
And I was like, well, okay. You know, why not? And so they roped me into this really cool program where I did two master’s degrees simultaneously. One in history and one in international relations. So, and I did half my degree work here at WVU and half in Eastern Europe. Cool. So I got to go live in Poland and Estonia.
Nice. And do a bunch of academic work over there. And I had a really incredible experience. It was my, that grad school experience was only my second time ever being abroad. Mm. And it was, you know, really exciting for me. And definitely life-changing in one of those big Yeah. You know, cliche ways that, yeah.
I mean, and there’s a reason it’s cliche, right? Because, you know, it was, it was really, it was really eye-opening and it was the first time in my life that I got to spend time alone. So that’s where a lot of this started for me and how I talk about this a lot is I am, I’m a big. Big fan of solitude. I’m not a lonely person, but I love being alone.
Right. And so to be able to do that and travel the world, I kind of really, I got stuck in that lifestyle for almost 10 years and just kept going back to grad school. I really did. I was like, huh, maybe one more degree. Huh? Maybe I’ll do this, huh? Maybe. And I was really lucky to have just fantastic mentors and, you know, I, I explored a, a darker field of history.
Unfortunately, I, I work in Holocaust and genocide studies, but really found a lot of very hopeful, helpful ways to work in that field. That felt very meaningful to me, and I got to have those experiences all over the place. I spent a lot of time in South America, down in Argentina. Mm-hmm. Uruguay, Chile. You know, over in Europe, all across Europe, which was really wonderful.
Hopped over and spent some time in Armenia with some dear friends, which was just absolutely stunning and totally fantastic, Israel, you know, and then of course all over North America and, and the eastern part of the US so I, I had a really great chance to leave West Virginia. Yeah. And to see the big wide world.
You took it and it was incredible. And then when the pandemic hit, Everything changed, right? Mm-hmm. I was working in a museum in New York Holocaust Museum. It was a really incredible place right outside the city. And so, of course, you know, with Covid, everything shut down and I came home to be near my family.
So I was here working in, in the nonprofit world and at my beloved Barnes and Noble.
Maureen: We’re all jealous of that job.
Abigail: Actually got, it’s the best honey of best discount. Yeah. It’s, it’s the best. That discount is just killer. Okay. Side note though.
Maureen: Mm-hmm. Because this is my experience as a customer Yeah.
Just to poop every time you
Heather: walk in that
Abigail: store. No, but that is totally a thing. So this is so off topic, but like, seriously, I’m so glad you asked this question because it’s definitely a thing that we employees of the store talk about all the time. Okay. So I would say probably like there, there are certain members of the staff that go.
Every day at the store. Like it also triggers for them. What is it about them? Yeah. It, I think it’s gotta be something in the book smell, because truthfully, like
Maureen: I fall victim to
Heather: it. Yeah. And it’s very uncomfortable. Well, there is also a Starbucks in there.
Abigail: Yeah. And that’ll get the, it’s that little coffee in books.
Yeah. It gets you going. I’m so
Maureen: sorry to sidetrack. You’re incredible
Heather: lifestyle. No, when I look at those books, my sphincter relaxes and then I smell the coffee and my body’s like, it’s go time.
Abigail: I figured it out. Yeah. No, I, I do not use public restrooms, so I can’t, I can’t say I’m on that train, but it’s definitely a thing at Barnes and Noble for sure.
Okay. We’d really, we need to do a cross. Across BC’s study and find out if this also happens at like, books a Million or like Right. Secondhand bookstores. A
Heather: Million Store Future is now in statistics
Maureen: of bowel movements,
Heather: I
Abigail: think. Bowel movements. Yeah. Yeah. That’ll be my next career. And it honestly could, because I went from being, you know, someone who wanted to work at the State Department mm-hmm.
To a historian, to someone working in public history, to someone working in the nonprofit world. And I’ve also worked in higher education and research. Yeah. And now I’m in the lactation space, which is just like, ha. But this is what happens when your friend needs help. You step in and you say, oh hell yeah.
Like, yeah, that sounds super fun. And also, Skills are transferable, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so how did I get, you know, from what I was doing to working here with Heather is like 30 years of friendship, almost a lot of trust and two very big brains, right? Like, yeah. She was like, I am really good at this and I know what I’m doing on this front, but I need help over on this side of things.
Could you come. Help me out with that. And I was like, well, yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Like so we play to each other’s strengths. Obviously I know shit about lactation, but I’m really good at operations.
Maureen: Yeah. And, and those are the same behind almost any business. Exactly. Mm-hmm. You know, this is a service sector
Heather: essentially.
Mm-hmm. Well, and also big picture for me, I just wanted an advisor on, as we grow, how do we do it in a way that is culturally sensitive? How do we do it in a way where we are not putting the entire intellectual burden of feeding babies on women? Yes. You know, and because you are child free and you choose not to be married, and you have all of these experiences all around the world mm-hmm.
You bring a very unique perspective to this. Very family oriented. Right. Yeah. Also feminist thing that we are doing here. Mm-hmm. And, and I love that. And you know, I had, I’ll never forget this, where I was having trouble with an employee like three years ago who kept having sick kids and could not help me.
Mm-hmm. And I was like paying her to not help me. Right. And I told Abigail, I said, I just feel bad because I represent this thing that wants to help women and families. But when I hire people that are women who have families because of our system, they get shit on all the time. Which means I get shit on.
And what do you remember what you said
Abigail: to me? No, I love this though. I can guess. Please go.
Heather: You were like Heather, and you waved your hand in front of my face and you were like, to be equal means that you hire equal parts people that have children and people that don’t. You should not have to rely solely on people that have children.
Mm. And I was like, and that right there is the thing and that’s why you’re hired. Yeah. Yeah. And that perspective has really helped us Yeah. A lot. And it’s also spurred a lot of conversation, cuz that whole time that you were gone mm-hmm. I was mm-hmm. Having children. Yeah. I was having Theo, and you know, I mm-hmm.
You know. Mm-hmm. All of our, not all of our friends, but many of our friends were having kids. Yeah. And it was kind of hard at first Yes. To watch you gallivant the world and be and Yeah. Better yourself. And I felt like I was, I had made a mistake in some way sometimes. Well, that, I
Maureen: mean, that brings me to a question.
Yeah. Right. Because the heart of the question for everybody, you know, everyone you meet is like, why don’t you have kids? Was it, was it an accident of like, you had these goals and you were just gonna go through, and it’s not that you didn’t plan to have them, you just didn’t, and you’re happy with your life, or were you like, I.
Turned off from the idea from the beginning.
Abigail: No, definitely not. So I started babysitting when I was really young, like 11 or 12. Like, I took the babysitting class, I got certified, you know, we all did that. I was so fucking excited. Excited. Oh yeah.
Maureen: The, we excited babysitter. We were all in our minds. In the babysitter club.
Abigail: Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh, I wish I was Claudia so fucking bad hair. Yeah, she was just cool as shit too. Yeah. You know, like an artist, like, oh yeah, I know. Anyway, but I, so I started babysitting when I was really young. Mm-hmm. And kept that up all through undergrad and had some wonderful experiences and some kids that, you know, I mean, I sat them literally for like 10 years.
Yeah. Which is like crazy. You know, so in, in my own way, I’ve always had and been around kids in meaningful and, and, you know, deep relational ways, which felt wonderful. And, and I love kids and I love babies. So, so you don’t just like secretly hate children? I don’t see secretly hate children. Most of the time we’re, we’re all there we’re, there’re exactly right.
Yeah. I only hate them when they’re really torturing my friends. So who have them. But it’s, you know, it’s one of those things that I decided back when I was in undergrad, when I was early in my twenties, that I, I wanted to create a life on my own. Terms for myself and I. I know that comes off as really selfish to a lot of folks.
And for me, I, I have always kept in, in my heart how deeply our foremothers fought for us. Mm-hmm. And, and they fought for everything. Right? They fought for, they fought for our choices, they fought for our possibilities in about a million different directions. Right? And for me, the way that I want to honor that fight and the way I want to keep it going is by living a life on my terms.
Yeah. And so I, I knew that I did not want to have children of my own, but I knew that I always would have children in my life and that I would be honored and thrilled to be a part of their mothering teams. Right. So, I might not be a mother, but I do plenty of mothering. I think mostly consensually.
I’m not that person that’s gonna yell at your kids in target, but I’m definitely that person who. If I’m your friend, I’m gonna come over and help you out, and I’m gonna give your kids talks, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna show them some gentle discipline. Sometimes, like Heather, Heather has seen me in action with Heidi, a time or two with Theo a
Heather: time or two, and they respond to it.
Oh. From other people. Well, really like, yes, they do. And I love it. Yeah. It’s just that different perspective too, where you’re, and frankly, I’m. I’m exhausted sometimes. Yeah. You’re like,
Maureen: yeah, please get my kids in line. Yeah. Cause I’m
Heather: just going to bed. Yeah. Please yell at them because I can’t even look at them one more time today.
Well,
Maureen: you know, here’s the question that mm-hmm. Please. At home, just don’t ask this if people, but yeah. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want. Yeah. Yeah. Like what happens if you regret it? Like, do you think Yeah. I mean, do you regret it now? What happens 10 years down the line if you’re like, I’m too old to have children now.
Mm-hmm. And I regret it, like, you know. Yeah.
Abigail: I don’t, I’m not a, I’m not a person that’s really big on regret, just overall in life. I don’t have many substantial regrets that I can really think about. But I, I don’t think I’m gonna regret this because I do have those really meaningful relationships with kids with my friend’s kids, with my cousin’s kids, you know, and all the wonderful babies that we meet here at our practice.
For me, I don’t think that that’s a way to live your life, you know, do this so you don’t regret it later. I understand why some people live that way, but I’m also a super risk averse person. Mm. And like kids are a big risk. Yeah. And my personal brain chemistry does not lead me down paths where I don’t have good control and risk assessment capabilities.
Hmm. So that’s also just, you know, personally, psychologically, mentally, emotionally. I don’t believe that having children would be a good thing for me in my life. So I feel much better equipped to help out with my friends and family members’, children in very meaningful ways, and then keeping myself also healthy and happy, you know, that that stays forefront so that I can contribute.
In my own way, in my own
Heather: roles. I think what we’re talking about here, if we could name it, is value. Like the way we value ourselves. And I think a lot of regret happens when it’s not necessarily the kids. It’s a lifetime of undervaluing yourself and what you have to offer. And then at the end of a missed mark, you, you, you just feel like you missed another way that you could have been valuable.
Right?
Maureen: Yeah. Or like now you don’t have a legacy or, yeah. Like what? It’s a weird, I mean, and it’s a weird mindset that we’ve been mm-hmm. I don’t know. Like it feels like, I don’t even know where that came from, but yeah, it’s
Abigail: there. I mean, can I also say that I would much rather not have kids and regret that, like I’ll play devil’s advocate of myself.
I would much rather not have kids and regret that than have kids and regret it a hundred percent because I know. Women. Mm-hmm. I know women who have kids and regret it, and that’s okay. And that’s also like, it’s a big taboo hard thing to talk about. I think we should though. Yeah. And that’s like,
Heather: Let’s get into it.
Abigail: I don’t ever,
Maureen: I mean, my own mother, I think is that person. Mm-hmm. Like, I think didn’t actually want children. I hope she’s not listening. She never listens.
Abigail: Well, I, I, I can make you feel better. Maureen, my mother is that person too. She loves me. And it’s not that she’s a bad person. She loves me. Oh yeah. She loves me.
We have, we actually write, like we have a great relationship now. Yeah. Which is wonderful. But I know that if she could go back, she would not have children. Mm-hmm. And that’s also totally fine, right? Yeah. Like, yeah. So, I don’t know. It’s a lot to unpack there, but I think for me the, the best way to think about that is that, you know, We have so many different ways that we can, you know, process what it means to be a woman and what it means to be in a, in a mothering way, whether or not those kids are ours or others.
So, when we think about that in a more expansive way than just saying, I biologically burst a child and, and now I am a mother, right? I think that there are a lot of other ways to think about parenting. And Belle Hooks, I think, was one of the greatest teachers on that subject, right? Like, you know, radical love and radical parenting, you know, stripping away some of the gendered aspects of it.
But we don’t live in that. We don’t live in that world just yet, right? I don’t know if we ever will. I feel kinda
Heather: pessimistic about it days, I think. I think also my grandma, when she was. Older she had, she was losing it a little bit. Mm-hmm. And she told my mom, one day the truth came out, you know, I never wanted children.
And my mom was like, ouch. What? And she’s like, no, I didn’t, but your grandfather and I negotiated on one. That’s why we have one. Mm-hmm. And it’s like very transactional. And my mom’s like, how am I supposed to feel about that? Yeah. And I’m like, you’re not, you know, like
Maureen: it’s fine. Yeah.
Abigail: There’s no playbook for that one.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it’s not on her. Right. It’s, yeah. It’s, and it’s not about her. Right. Right. Like, that’s the biggest thing I would say to other folks who have moms that, you know, would go back and wouldn’t have kids. Again, that’s, that’s not a reflection of my mother’s love. For me, that’s a reflection of my mother’s understanding of the ways in which.
Culture failed her mm-hmm. And forced her into things that would not have been her choice otherwise. Yeah.
Heather: Options and like where we get our value and like, okay, it’s time now. Like the biological clock thing. Yeah. So like, oh, yep. It’s, it’s about time, don’t you think? And that plays in so much to
Maureen: these conversations we have about Yeah.
Being child free, you know, and the way people are like, well, you’ll, you’ll feel differently
Heather: in a couple years. Don’t you wanna freeze your eggs just in case?
Abigail: Just in case. Oh my God. Uhhuh,
Maureen: don’t you? Yeah. Don’t you wanna have a needle through your vaginal wall just in case?
Abigail: Like, I don’t think so. No, no, I don’t.
No. I’m gonna pass on that one. No, I don’t. No.
Heather: Let’s take a quick break to thank our sponsor Aero Flow. Aero
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Well, what else do we get? Well, if you guys follow the link in our show notes, you can use the Code Milk Minute at checkout for free shipping on all domestic
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Maureen: Absolutely. Once again, that’s the link in our show notes and use the code milk minute for free shipping on all domestic orders.
Heather: Well, I guess you know, the question is why are we talking about this today? Yeah. And I think number one, we were gonna leave it a little bit open so like whatever could come out could come out. Mm-hmm. But in general, we wanted our listeners who are in any of these camps Yes. To feel okay about it. Maybe you have a kid and you regret it.
Okay. What now? Yeah, like how, like how about your childless friends by choice? Like why is there a rift? How do we amend it? How do we, how do we understand our role and kind of bring the community back together of women
Maureen: just in general? And that’s why I wanted to have this conversation, like, yeah. Most of my childless friends when I had my child.
Also, like some of them have children now cuz I had my first younger than most of my friends just fell away. Mm-hmm. Just poof. Disappeared. Yeah. And like that happens to a lot of people. Yes. Whether it’s intentional or not. And I’m sure there’s a mix there. Oh yeah. Because not everybody who’s.
Doesn’t have children feels the same way you do about them, or, you know, so obviously like this isn’t what all of your child free friends are thinking. Yeah. This is what Abigail’s thinking,
Abigail: this is, this is, yeah. Disclaimer, but these opinions are solely my own.
Heather: You were not paid by anybody to say
Abigail: sponsored that.
Do not speak for other spinsters, just myself. Mm-hmm.
Heather: But,
Maureen: but you know, it’s, it’s still valuable I think to have the conversation and I’m hoping we can kind of model Yeah. A way to discuss this that might help you guys mend those rift with your friends or, yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, talk to your friends, like while you’re still pregnant and you’re about to have your first kid and you look around and say, oh my gosh, nobody else has kids.
Wait. Mm-hmm. This might
Abigail: not work. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think I’ve had a lot of, of experiences across the spectrum of like losing friends when they had kids to like losing touch for a while to like. You know, I was there throughout everything. It’s, it’s really run the gamut in my life because the vast majority of my friends do have children.
I don’t really have very many other child free friends, and so that is an interesting thing in and of itself. I think, yeah, a lot of it has to do with geography and culture and education and class and all kinds of stuff, but it’s really, it’s, it is very hard because it feels like culturally there is definitely a big rift and divide.
So we say a low stakes cultural war in amongst women. That’s a really good way to phrase it. Mm-hmm. Who have children and who don’t. Right. Like, we’re not the enemy. And I think that if, if anything could come except on airplanes. Except on airplanes, that’s, but it’s a high stakes
Heather: cultural war.
Abigail: That’s why they make noise canceling earphones.
Right.
Heather: Control what you can control.
Abigail: Exactly. So also just like empathy. Like we gotta fucking get baseline, we gotta get it back together. And that’s the part
Heather: this, in this country.
Abigail: Right? Yeah. And I think like, if anything could come from this episode, it would be, it would be that folks would assume the best and assume the best intention.
And assume the best like mentality on both sides. Right. People who have kids, please don’t think that those of us who don’t have kids, Hate kids. Mm-hmm. And that we’re selfish, you know, egomaniacs. Yeah. Like why can’t
Heather: you have a seat at the table? Yeah. You know, I fully value your opinion about my child rearing because you knew me before I had children.
Because when you have kids and you feel that initial isolation, it’s scary. And then also identity crisis, and then who am I? And then just like task after task. And then years go by and you’re like, who am I? And it’s important to have people who are well rested, who value you, and they want you to be okay.
Look at you and say, Hey bud, you know, this is what I’m noticing. Like. Do you remember that you used to like to do this? Like, could we do that? Can I watch your kids so you can go do that? Mm-hmm. And letting them do that. Yeah. You know, don’t rely solely on your friends that have kids, like, I guess this is my group now.
Yeah. Where you have play dates where like you sit on a bench with another mom and you don’t really ever finish a sentence cuz the kids never. Stop talking to you. You know, I, I think that like, we just need to, what’s the end of a
Maureen: sentence, Heather? I haven’t
Heather: had one of those in seven days or a thought.
Just a thought would be great. And then you look at that mom and you’re like, I’ll just hit you up in kindergarten. Like, I dunno,
love it. I don’t know. But yeah, I kind of feel like just inviting each other to the table to be like, Hey, you know, this is also a temporary thing in a lot of ways. Yeah. Like you’ve got your kids little. Yeah. Like they actually only really wanna hang out with you for like 11 years, 12 years. I know. I
Maureen: was reading some something that was like, you know, by the time your kids are 18 they’ll have spent this like ridiculously high percentage of all of the time they’ll ever spend with you.
Yeah. And I was like, oh my God.
Heather: Hit me in the fields. Right. And then what? Yeah. And then what are you gonna do if that’s your whole identity and that’s your whole value. And I think the lesson that Abigail is sharing with us that she learned early, we’re gonna have to learn anyway. Mm-hmm. How to be. How to enjoy some solitude.
Yeah. How to identify the value within yourself without serving tiny people constantly. Yeah. And also acknowledging that you can choose not to have kids but find children very valuable. Yeah. I mean, they’re your future taxpayers folks.
Abigail: Yeah. No, Heather, that, that, that really resonates. And, and I think the other thing that, that US child free friends of parents would say is that, We love our friends that have kids, and we miss them a lot.
And we just, we wanna be with you. And we’re, we’re not, you know, we’re, we’re not just yearning for days of your, when, you know, before the kids came along. Like, we’re excited to watch you on this journey to support you, to be there with you, to help you to, you know, bear some of the burden and the load.
And we we’re happy to do that and we wanna do that. And we also want you to remember that you’re a whole person outside of your kids, right? Because yeah, we wanna talk about your kids. We wanna coup over them. We wanna buy them gifts. I wanna be their cool auntie forever. And at the same time, I also, I want you to be a fully actualized human being who like has her own thoughts and her own time and her own interests.
You know, when that is. Possible. Right. Well when parenting Yeah.
Maureen: And I wanna circle back to like one phrase of that. Yeah. Where you mentioned sharing the load. And I think I was just like, I’m feeling feels, what am I feeling that for? While you were talking, because that’s a really contentious part of this, of like, the argument between having children and not having children mm-hmm.
Is like, well you made that choice. These are your children now you deal with it. But ah, Oh man,
Abigail: that’s fucked up. Yeah. We’re
Maureen: humans, like humans are social creatures and mm-hmm. Instinctively, biologically, like we live in groups where we share responsibilities for eating and staying safe and raising children because that is like, it benefits the species, benefits the whole group, but of course now we’re in this weird.
Part of our culture, at least in this western part of the world mm-hmm. Where we have very firmly lived in nuclear families for a long time and have been separated from multi-generation households have been separated out of small, supportive, like village type communities and have really been raising children in isolation for a long time.
Mm-hmm. And I think millennial parents are kind of in this interesting, like culmination spot, especially where a lot of our parents totally dumped us on our grandparents. And now they’re like, why would I help you raise your children? Yeah. I raised you. We’re like, no you didn’t. And I also don’t think that, you know, yes I had children.
I do not expect any other human to take responsibility for them. However, I do expect if you wanna be my friend and part of my community that you will share. Some of that sometimes yes. But I think
Heather: that’s a really contentious point. Yeah. Like don’t just invite me out to dinner without the kids. Yes. Like invite us out to dinner because I might not have really seen my kids all week.
Yeah. Because they go to daycare. And then for me to spend a Friday night with just a friend away from my children. That’s not that fun for me. Really. Like it is, but it’s not because I’m now torn. Right.
Maureen: Sometimes, and sometimes that’s all I want. Right. Sometimes, sometimes I’m like, but you should need both.
Abigail: You should stay able to choose. You need both.
Heather: Yeah. And it will vary day to day. Yes. And so you need the friend who’s like, Hey, how are you feeling today? You, do you need time alone? Or should we hang out with the kids? Mm-hmm. Or do you want me to come over? Is it a sweatpants night? Or like, can I bring
Abigail: you some food?
Oh, is a sweatpants night? Can I
Heather: Oh yeah. Yeah. Who are we kidding? Or a no pants night lately for me. Cause I’m so pregnant. Yeah. Well, and you know what I was thinking about when you were talking about families that live in groups, there was never really a question about people’s roles. You know, like the child-free auntie is still a part of the kids’ lives.
The kids know that they can go to them for certain things. Sure.
Maureen: And, and in some cultures, like literally every woman of a certain age is auntie. Yeah. That’s their name, right? Yeah. You know, and, and that speaks so strongly to how we care for
Heather: each other. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess how do you feel about your role in this weird nuclear society we’ve created?
Yeah. Being child free by choice. Do you feel like a bit of an outsider? Yeah,
Abigail: definitely. That’s nothing new for me though. Like the spaces that I was moving in for that decade when I was gone from West Virginia, I was al already always the outsider, right? Mm-hmm. And being a single person too, and in addition to being child free, right?
Like, you know, I, I don’t have any interest in marriage and I, I just, I’m, I’m not here for that. But that’s a, honestly, I’m like, a
Maureen: lot of our listeners just by being married might really
Heather: empathize. I’m not here
Abigail: for that. Not here for that. And you know what? Marriage is great for a lot of folks. It’s just not great for me.
The same thing is true of being child free, right? Like, that’s, that’s the perspective that I wish we could all just bring to that. Like, everybody’s choices are good if they’re good for them, right? Mm-hmm. So, but yeah, I lost the, I lost the plot there. Heather. What was your question? I’m so sorry.
Heather: Like your role, like, do you feel Oh yeah.
My role? Yeah. Do you feel like your role is more confusing now?
Abigail: Yes and no. For a long time. I, I, I felt really defensive about it because people, I would ask all the time, like, when are you gonna settle down? Mm-hmm. When are you gonna, you know, find someone to settle down with? When are you gonna have kids?
When, you know I did get the egg freezing question from time to time, and anytime I expressed, especially to a member of an older generation that, that I did not wanna have children, they were like, when you meet the right person, you’ll change your mind. Yeah. You’ll now. Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: No. And basically what they’re saying is there’s no place for you without it.
Abigail: Yeah, exactly. And, and that is very isolating, and it’s a really uncomfortable place to be when you’re not secure in who you are. And that’s a really tough thing to ask for, you know, young people in their twenties, right. That era of emerging adulthood that we all have to go through, mm-hmm. You know, to have your choices so maligned and so criticized and so just offhand dismissed like that time and time again.
It is, it’s really painful and it’s really frustrating. So I would say that there, there was a period of a couple of years there in my, like mid to late twenties where I dreaded this conversation ever coming up, and I would always, you know, resort to the you know, I’m, I’m still in grad school, you know to sort of deal with that.
Yeah. But, Now that, I mean, I’m 35 now officially, you know, beyond my prime, as some would say for geriatric geriatrics. You got geriatric eggs. So there’s a, there’s a, a relief in that. Right. Nice. That I’m no longer looked at for my breeding potential. Which in a way is like, you know, really nice as we’re living through this dystopian era of lack of bodily autonomy and choice.
Mm-hmm. And so there, there’s, there’s a sigh of relief there. And there’s, there’s also still there’s that that degradation doesn’t stop coming though. Right. It’s pity now. Yeah. You know, like, oh, poor you,
Heather: you know? Mm-hmm. You’re gonna be alone and you’re like, I’m gonna be alone. Fuck yeah, I am.
Abigail: I’m like, that’s how I designed it.
So,
Heather: and also like. Do you ever wanna look at those people and be a real dick and be like, yeah, but you might be alone too, because your partner might leave you. Your kids might not even like you. Yeah. And then guess what? I’m surrounded by all of my friends’, children, and my friends at the end. And you’re the one who’s alone because you’re a dick.
Abigail: That feels, that feels karmic. Yeah. Yeah. I had not thought of it that way before. And I hope it never comes to that. Right. Even to the dicks that were dicks to me. Do you have, do you have snarky
Maureen: answers though? When people ask about kids, do you just ever give them like totally ridiculous
Abigail: answers? No, not usually.
Like, usually I just get mad. You know what I mean? I like, I would just, that’s none of your fucking business, you know what I mean? Like, and it, it is a rude thing to say, oh yeah. Like I think that’s another thing that like, you know, I just. There’s, there’s like no such thing as privacy anymore. Mm. The decision that I made to not have children has about 700,000 different reasons and factors.
Yeah. And I’m not exaggerating there. Mm-hmm. I could literally talk about it for ages, and I have to also imagine that for folks who have children, they feel the same way. There are so many reasons why they have children.
Heather: Right. None of them are good. Oh, no, no. I mean, what I was, tell me
Abigail: more
Heather: because when I, when I was trying to decide on having a third kid mm-hmm.
I’m trying to be pragmatic about it. Okay. Here’s the good reasons to have kids, and you’re like, They’re cute. They smell good. I mean, hopefully they’re cute. Some of them are cute. And then you’re like, oh they’re gonna love you
Maureen: some. Yeah. There are lots of good reasons. Heather, you were
Heather: just feeling No, there’s no good reason.
It’s because you want them. That’s
Maureen: it. Because you feel inclined. That is both a good and valid reason
Heather: for many people. Well, yes. Yes. But it’s not like, oh, because it’s a good investment.
Maureen: The judgment from the corner of here. I love it.
Abigail: Love, I mean, but I’d like what? You’re right. Heather’s saying is resonating
Maureen: for me.
No, totally. Yeah. They’re not like a good financial decision. They statistically don’t even like raise your happiness level over your
Heather: lifetime. They’re not gonna help your relationship with your partner. But
Maureen: many people think they will actually. Which is interesting. That’s like why? Oh yeah. Like, so I have a friend who.
Bless him. He’s in his eighties. He had a very tough first marriage. Mm-hmm. And the way he described it to me once was really funny. He was like, well, my wife and I really didn’t get along, so we just kept having more children. Oh my God.
Abigail: Yeah.
Heather: And, and you know, and it was
Maureen: like not a good reason as like if we just.
Keep trying, we’ll get it right. You know? Yeah. And I was like, Ooh,
Heather: wow. You’re like, what if we got even less sleep?
Abigail: No, he’s, he’s of
Heather: those people that so wisdom me. No, it’s like, it’s hard on your body. Yeah. It’s just, it’s really hard. And I think when your first baby, you don’t feel like that. You’re like, I’m gonna be a mom.
And then you have a kid and you’re like, oh my God, this is so hard. So by the time you’re like, do we have a third? You’re like, all right, let’s just be really honest with ourselves. We’re having one because we want one. And I can’t really put my finger on it. It is not a rational decision. It’s an irrational emotional want that I have.
Yeah. And that’s fine. Yeah. That’s a good reason. Mm-hmm. But that’s the, the only good reason you can’t, you can’t say like, well, having children will, you know, affirm your legacy. No, it won’t. Right. My point, point, they don’t fit into like, what’s your great grandma’s full name? Do you even know? Right. Do you even know where they’re buried?
No, I do know my great-grandmother, but you’re a historian
Maureen: When they’re buried. Just Abigail,
Abigail: sorry. R i b Dorcus. Love you.
Heather: But like people, people crack me up, like gravestones crack me up. Yeah. I’m like, who’s coming? One generation
Maureen: from now, I actually can I agree with that one. Like, that’s so true. Yeah. You know what? I put up gravestones for my pet. Because I go and I sit with them when they die. But actually me, I’m like, just plant a tree over
Abigail: me, y’all.
Yeah. Nice to come and get composted. Have you heard about that? I do want that for myself. Myself too. I, I’m excited about
Heather: that. I’m gonna be crammed into a diamond like Chris Jenner. Oh
Abigail: yeah. Rock. If you die first. Can I have you? Yeah.
Maureen: Yes, thanks. Can you put it in a setting like, like that necklace from the Titanic.
Abigail: Titanic. Yes. That’s exactly what I was thinking. And then one day I’ll throw it into the ocean. Yes. Right before I die. I’m so glad we’re all on the same paper. So romantic. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And that way we’ll never be alone. See, we figured it out. Got it.
Abigail: Done.
Heather: Well, that’s a wrap, folks. Well so wait, can we circle back really quick?
Mm-hmm. To lactation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, mm-hmm. So tell us about your experience working directly with families Yeah. That are in these really vulnerable times of their lives. Yeah. Working through identity crises. Mm-hmm. Working through these sleepless nights, and then they come in here and they see you and you interact with them.
Tell me how does it feel? Yeah. What are you noticing? Mm-hmm. And, you know, what do you want them
Abigail: to know? Yeah. It feels like a huge honor. I hope that they know how much it means to me to be in a position to help even though I’m not doing the caring to help, to help be part of a structure and part of a practice that is caring for them and to make their lives just a little bit easier in, in any way to get them what they need to get through and to navigate that really vulnerable, scary time.
It, it feels like incredibly meaningful work to me. And, and that. That is why I love it so much. I mean, the cute babies don’t hurt either, but it’s also like, this brings me like way back to my feminist roots, which has always put me in a place where I hoped and dreamed that I would be able to live and work in a community of women serving women.
And that’s where I am. So I guess I’m saying that I’m 35 and I achieved all my dreams without children or a husband, and that feels pretty fucking good. So, Yeah. Thanks for Abigail. Thank you. Mm-hmm. That’s great. It’s definitely nothing about, this is how I pictured my life turning out. Right. But I think that most of us would say that, you know, there’s always something unexpected around the next corner.
And like, this is the corner that I’m at right now, and it’s a really, it’s a really beautiful one. This is a place where I get to come to work every day with my best friend. I get to watch and support you through your third pregnancy. I get to be around to watch Heidi and Theo grow up and spend time with them and take them to get their haircut and buy them books.
Like it’s, you know, there’s so much joy. And I think especially working in this practice and in this field where, where, again, I’m an outsider, right? You know, or are you, or am I
Maureen: like, do you thrive on being an outsider? Because it
Abigail: seems like that’s, Yeah, I, there’s definitely like something about it that, you know, I told you earlier, I’m really, I’m big on the solitude.
Mm-hmm. So there’s something comfortable for me about standing alone. Yeah. That’s just fine. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it’s, it has brought me so much experience and so much joy. And also it gives me the time to internally process a lot of things. I think that’s probably, like, for me, one of the best and coolest parts about the way that I have designed and lived my life is that I have a lot of time for thinking, and I have a lot of time for processing, which is really, really, I know what a privilege that is and I do not take it for granted.
So to be able to have that perspective and to be able to take that time, especially in the face of serving families who are like going through that. Urgency flash period of their life where everything is a blur, right? Everything is moving so fast things are changing really rapidly and they need people there to put up guardrails and hold their hands and help them.
Yeah. And to be able to be a part of that network and system it’s, it’s super rewarding. And also, like I said, it’s just, it’s a real honor, you know, to get to be with people during those times.
Heather: Well, I do have some bad news for you because you’re not an outsider. From my perspective, you’re an integral part of my life as a person and as a mom, and as a partner to my husband because, I mean, you don’t, all right.
You don’t always want to go to your married friends for advice on how to be a good partner. True, yeah, because they’re usually bad at, they’re biased and everyone’s bad at it, so it’s ask the friend who knows you best, who. Would help you hide the body, but also wants you to not get divorced unless you need, they’re let’s, let’s not
Maureen: get there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: Let’s, but if you do, I I’m there too. Or the friend’s like, you are overreacting, you know? Yeah. So like, think about that. You are an integral part of my children’s lives of their I, I love that they get to have an example of mm-hmm. Being child free. Mm-hmm. You know, that’s really important.
Yeah. Because I would never want to look at my daughter and be like, all right, you have one.
Maureen: When are you making my grand babies?
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. You have one child As I’m smoking a Virginia Slim, you make mad
Maureen: porch gossiping my, don’t you do something for me?
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, yeah. I, I don’t see you as an outsider at all, and I, I hope that all of you listening, reach out to the friend that you haven’t talked to in a really long time who doesn’t have kids and just, you know, See what they’re up to and be happy for them.
Yeah. So they can be happy for you. Well, and let’s
Maureen: flip that here, since we have Abigail as this really incredible resource and example, so as the child free portion of this friendship. Yeah. You know, if you were talking to an audience of just people who don’t have kids either yet or by choice forever, whatever it is.
Yeah. Let’s talk about how we can support our friends mm-hmm. Who have children and who are breastfeeding. Yeah. You know, have young children, all of that. Like when it’s so far out of your experience. Yes.
Heather: Tactical stuff.
Abigail: Exactly. No, I think the number one most important thing that I always come back to and lean on, and it’s really, it’s, it’s become so easy for me at this point because Heather and I have known each other and been friends for so long.
28 years now. Just congratulations. Thank you. So across those 28 years of friendship, the number one most important thing and the reason that we’re still together still together, we’re, we’re still together as best friends after 28 years be more One day I we’re keeping things strictly platonic.
Just for safety. For now. Yeah. For safety. But it, it has to do with listening and I mean listening and again, an expansive capacity, right? Like I listen to Heather, I listen to her talk every day. I listen to what her eyes are telling me. I listen to her body posture, right? Like I listen to her tone.
Mm-hmm. I listen to how many times and how deeply she sighs in the office across the hall from me. True that. Right? So yeah. It’s really important as the childless person in the relationship to be like, Hey, I see you. I see you. I see all of you, and I’m watching you, and I’m learning from you, and I, I’m also taking your cues because sometimes I can tell she needs this or she needs that.
Mm-hmm. Or she wants this, or she’s really fucking mad, or whatever the day might bring, you know what I mean? But like, so listen to your friends with kids and also watch them, right? Yeah. Like pick up on those cues and like, And if you’re bad at that, that is totally fine too. If you’re not a, you know, we all have different, you know, capacities and, and capabilities for reading other folks.
If that’s not your strength, then go straightforward and just fucking ask them. Just ask. Yeah. Just be like, Hey, what do you need? How can I help you? Like, you know, do you need this today or would you prefer that? You know, like, how, how can I be there and support you the best? Because I love you and, and I want you to have everything that, that you have ever dreamed of.
And whether that’s three kids, you know, or 30, you know, like, I’m gonna be there for it. I hope it’s not 30, cuz whoa. You better get hopping on that if it’s 32.
Heather: Oh Lord, Uhhuh. Yeah. Well, you know what I’m thinking about as you’re saying that I feel sad for men because they will not, I feel like, not that they won’t ever have that, but probably not.
Like the majority of men probably don’t have. A childless man friend who’s gonna be like, I see bro sees and,
Maureen: and it’s like, I mean there’s probably a lot of is because, you know, people assumed you were gonna have kids when you were a kid. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. So you were brought up with that assumption.
There’s still a lot of disappointed folks Yeah. With that like training. Yeah. You know, and I mean, my husband literally, who by the way, he’s gonna love this episode cuz I think he’ll really like you. Oh, for sure. That’s nice. He just loves like our intersectional episodes, you know? Thanks. He’s a philosophy major anyway.
Oh, cool stuff. But he like literally had basically never held an infant until I squeezed one out my badge. Wow. And then I was like, can you put a diaper on the baby? And he was like, what? How? Mm-hmm. And we just had this moment where we were like, fuck Yeah. And it’s not like he had bad parents or he didn’t have like a supportive community with kids around him, but nobody expected him to ever do that, even if he had
Abigail: kids.
This is what the patriarchy does to us. Yeah. It’s sad what it does to women, men and women. Okay. What it does to women. Everybody else. Everybody else on the spectrum too.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so if we can figure this out, if we can nail this, and if you all can, I’m not trying to rub it in and make you jealous that I have an Abigail, but I.
I think everyone’s gonna be like a little jealous. A little jealous. If
Abigail: anyone needs an Abigail, just stop into the office. I’m here.
Heather: Come set some at Barnes and
Abigail: Noble. We’ll take, we’ll set some office hours, you know? Yeah, I’m available.
Heather: Okay. Yeah, you’re available. You’re, they’re gonna be like, can you have a webinar, an Abigail webinar?
But yeah, I think if we can figure this out for as women, for women, yeah. We are going to be in such a better place as parents, as people and as partners. And then we can actually be an, an example for our male partners on like, Maybe, maybe you guys could ask each other for a little bit more support.
Uhhuh.
Maureen: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like my husband and I have like one male friend who I feel like is like that supportive, you know? But like, I remember early in our relationship, I just kept being like, lean on your friends. You know, we had a really hard time mm-hmm. Navigating like codependency between us and figuring out like what was too much and what wasn’t enough.
And I kept being like, talk to your friends. Lean on your friends. And he’d be like, I, we don’t do that. It’s not the, they don’t Same
Abigail: about, what do you mean, Uhhuh? Mm-hmm.
Heather: I’m like, I always ask my husband, so you fished all day with this one guy? What’d you guys talk about? And he was like, oh, you know, fishing stuff, you’re like that.
You talked about fish the entire day. Kids. I’m like, oh, you talked about kids. What did you talk about the kids? And he’s like, oh, just how they’re doing. And I’m like, you were there for 12 hours. What do you guys talk about? I was like, did you tell him that you’re having a hard time with, you know, fill in the blank.
And he’s like, no, no. Why would I do that? He’s like, no, we were fishing. And I’m like, oh my God. And, and it’s like,
Maureen: that’s the, that’s the way that the patriarchy has failed men. Yeah. Right. Is making them feel like that’s not a normal experience. Mm-hmm. That you can’t ask your friends for those things that you shouldn’t.
Yeah.
Abigail: Well, it’s really fucking
Heather: sad. We’re about to turn this into a matriarchal culture. We are. I, yeah. I was like,
Maureen: what should we call this episode? Like fuck the patriarchy
Heather: with Abigail. Yeah. Support the
Abigail: matriarchy. Support the matriarchy. Yeah. Can I put out a plug for a couple of, anytime of really cool things?
Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is because it’s on the brain, just because you said that, I think the We Are Man Enough podcast is a really that’s a good place to start for anyone who might want to recommend to their male partners who want to break down a little bit of the damage that the patriarchy’s done to them.
That’s a really that’s a really nice, super cool space for them to listen and maybe, hopefully learn and find some community around some of these issues. And then there’s a really wonderful book that, that I’m reading called Without Children, the Long History of Not Being a Mother, oh, by Peggy O’Donnell Huffington.
And I think we can maybe put that in the show notes. Absolutely. But yeah. Did you have a quote that
Heather: you wanted to read from that?
Abigail: Yeah, I did actually hit me with it. There’s like, okay, let me pull this, let me pull this out. I was excited when you walked in here with a book. I was like, yeah. I always, I’m always like, I’ve got a book everywhere.
Abigail’s really good book recommendation, everybody. So this is a quote that talks about, you know, some of the earliest divisions that were set up between mothers and non-mothers and like the role that culturally and politically, like I. You know the government has played in that here in the us So I’m gonna read you this quote from 1873.
The US Supreme Court Justice Joseph P. Bradley wrote that the paramount destiny and mission of women are to fulfill the noble and benign offices of wife and mother. And he wrote this in a concurring opinion to a ruling that allowed states to prevent women from becoming lawyers. Right? And he said, this is the law of the creator.
So thanks, Joey. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, you read something like that and, and you start to think about the ways in which women have traditionally always just been valued. I. For their potential as wives and mothers. Right. And if they couldn’t have children, that was one thing. They’re beheaded. Yeah. So that too.
But like here in this country, you know, we couldn’t even allow women, you know, in the late 19th century to, to become lawyers because that’s not what they’re for. Well, I
Maureen: mean, and literally like women couldn’t have their own bank accounts in very recent
Abigail: history. Oh, yeah. Couldn’t get a mortgage, couldn’t get a credit card.
Yeah, I just, I, I think about this a lot and I think about, you know, like I. That, that statement from the Supreme Court back in 1873. And then I think about the ways that it, it, it has and continues to impact women who are mothers and who aren’t mothers. Even today, like, you know this book that I’m reading right by, by O’Donnell Huffington, she goes on to talk about how like, even today, like Hillary Clinton is gonna go to her fucking grave apologizing for saying that there’s more to life than baking cookies and being a full-time mom.
Right. And Michelle Obama is still mm-hmm. Always saying like you know, mom in chief is the number one role. Like, that’s the one I’m most honored to play. And like, yes. And right. Mm-hmm. Like there’s a lot more to say here on both of those women’s guides. Yeah. I get the votes. You know, like, and I just, I think a lot of that like political pandering and you know, and it’s just, it’s so fucking disappointing and frustrating because it’s stuff like that that serves to keep us apart.
Right.
Maureen: I mean, it’s stuff like that that trickles down to like a TikTok video of somebody being like, get your fucking baby off the plane, you know? Yeah, exactly. They feel so wildly unrelated, but it’s this wide cultural
Abigail: influence. Absolutely. Right? Like losing that sense of connection and trust and compatibility between mothers and non-mothers.
Yeah. It doesn’t, yeah, it doesn’t help any of us.
Heather: Yeah. So like, do you think a childless woman would be president before I. A woman who is a
Abigail: mother? Oh, I actually, I don’t know. I, I, I think No, I, I can’t imagine. I actually, you really do. I do. Oh, I can’t imagine.
Maureen: Because, because I think any woman with children who is running is automatically gonna have her children as part of either, like a reason people don’t want her.
What if she’s distracted? Mm-hmm. You know what, if there’s nuclear war, but one of her kids is sick.
Heather: I mean, with a childless one, it’s like, what if she gets pregnant while in office?
Maureen: Right. Or like, I mean, but also, what a
Heather: liability. Well,
Abigail: you can’t be president until you’re 35, so, so,
Maureen: you know those shriveled eggs might help.
Abigail: Or 36 I’ll fudge. I think
Heather: 35. Is it 35 or 30? Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen: It’s interesting. So I feel I would trust, trust, trust a lot of average 25 year olds over like a 90 year old white man. Mm-hmm. And there’s no age cap, which no. Kind
Heather: of kills you. What are your, but what are your thoughts on that? Woman
Abigail: president. Oh no, I, you know, I can’t actually see a child.
Free or childless woman becoming president specifically because all of her motives would be suspect. Like how could you trust her? She has not even served her basic biological function. Mm-hmm. That’s true. So how could we, how could we trust her to run this
Maureen: country? But she wouldn’t have kids that made this
Abigail: scandal.
That’s true. So there’s at least that. But like, what would you talk about? I mean, this is like a thing like, you know, politicians here recently mm-hmm. You know, have made really stinging rebukes Yeah. Of the way that child free people are running and ruining this country and how selfish we are.
Maureen: Yeah. I mean the, you know, quote, return of family values to the government.
Abigail: Just like, so a lot of that is like, I, I, I absolutely see how that, you know, those arguments really hit home for people who are already primed in this war against non-mothers. Yeah. And like,
Heather: define family, bring back family values. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, in my mind, as we previously discussed, family is a community.
Yeah. Family means blood. Heather and, and aunties count.
Abigail: Thank you. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Maureen: Yes. We have a really broad definition of family here and. You know it, I always think of my family as the family I choose. Mm-hmm. You know, I certainly have many family members I am related to by some D n A thing that I also consider family, but like truly the people who have been most supportive in my adult life are not those people.
I don’t live near the people who are related to me. You know, and it’s the people who are like physically here with me and my
Heather: family. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the ties that bind for me too. Yeah. You know, and it’s not just like a tit for tat like, well, they do things for me. And it’s like, no, they’re experiencing things with me.
I, I
Maureen: feel like it’s just, I don’t know, like for a large portion of my life, like the people who were most compassionate toward me or people I was not born into,
Heather: you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, goodness, we could talk about this for a million more years. We’ve already recorded for an hour now. I know.
Well, I, I hope that if anything it just gave you, gave you some food for thought. Yeah. And let us know how you use the episode.
Maureen: Yeah. And I actually, I really enjoyed this conversation cuz we don’t really stray into the, like, sociopolitical sphere a lot. And I feel like we just did that for a long time in this episode.
That’s okay. We did it. No, and I, I like it, it feels like very stimulating. Conversation for me.
Heather: Oh,
Abigail: thanks. Yeah. Yeah. That’s how I roll. I’m happy to come back anytime.
Heather: Happy to come. Stimulate you anytime. Thanks, Abigail.
Abigail: Thank you, Maureen. Thank you, Heather. Thank you. Love you too. Really grateful for this opportunity.
Heather: Okay. Let’s take a quick break and when we come back, we are going to give an award in the alcove.
Do you have a baby that struggles with excessive gas, fussiness, colic, and general sleep problems?
Maureen: Well, I did, but then I used a Vivo
Heather: probiotics. A vivo is a pediatrician approved probiotic for babies that’s even used in NICUs on the gentlest tummies all over the United States.
Maureen: It is an amazing, unique product that contains a specific strain of B infantis that we need.
To digest human milk oligosaccharides, that’s actually
Heather: 15% of breast milk that your baby will then be able to utilize. Whereas if you don’t have the bacteria, there’s so much extra in the gut, which is why American babies poop like 10 times a day more than babies that are colonized with the infantis.
Maureen: I have personally seen this probiotic help my baby and the babies of many of my clients, and frankly, if we’re dealing with any of these symptoms, it is the first thing I go to.
Heather: And the best part is it’s not like any other probiotic that we would take when we’re sick or taking antibiotics where you take it every time you go through antibiotics for the rest of your life. If you give your baby. Evivo in the first a hundred days of life, it actually colonizes in their gut and becomes a part of their immune system, which then they can pass to the next generation.
And this is how we make change. Y’all Evivo is amazing because it’s gonna safeguard your baby’s health today and give you peace of mind in the future. Check
Maureen: out Evivo probiotics through the link in our
Heather: show notes and enter code milk minute for $10 off.
Okay. And actually we’re gonna let Abigail pick the award for the day. And Abigail, who are we gonna give the award in the alcove
Abigail: to? I would love to give the award to Rachel Cargill, who is an amazing teacher entrepreneur and, and wisdom sharer. She is. A really incredible person that I have never met but whose work I love to read and watch online, and I would like to give her the Rich Auntie Supreme Award today.
Mm-hmm. That is her brand name. That’s cute and cute. It’s a part of the work that she does as a really incredible child free woman who. Reminds folks that being child free is not, not about hating children. Yeah. And that, you know, we’re really, those of us who are child free, we’re rich in many different ways that we bring to those relationships with the kids in our lives.
She has really inspired me and I really, I appreciate and value her work so much, and I found a lot of community in her work. And so I just, I want to shout out Rachel Cargill and thank her from, from across the airwaves for all, all of her, all of her kindness, all of her thoughtfulness in the work that she does around being child free.
That’s
Heather: awesome. Thanks. I love that. Yeah. I need to go check that out too. Yeah. You wanna close us out with our Apple review? I do. I wanna close you
Maureen: out with this review that I really love because I don’t know that anybody, like they mentioned an episode that they love that hasn’t gotten a lot of love before, so it makes me happy.
Okay. Okay. So this is from. May Rock. Five star review. Thank you. I got hooked with the Halloween episode After just two episodes, I became a milk mate. I listened to a few other random episodes, including the tongue-tie one that spoke to me in so many ways, and then I laughed so hard at the Halloween one that I woke up my sleeping baby.
I’m so happy to have found an inclusive, educational, funny podcast about something so important to me. Now, I wish I could remember the Reddit post that recommended this podcast. Ooh, we’re on Reddit. Me too. I, I’m gonna go search Reddit.
Heather: Oh my God. I don’t know how to use Reddit still.
Maureen: It’s an app now. It used to be like a thing that you went to a website and read lots of like conversation threads, but now it’s an
Heather: app.
We’re on Reddit. Okay. Heck yeah, we
Maureen: are nice. That’s awesome. Makes me feel pretty good cuz I love Reddit.
Heather: Well, thanks. May rock. And that’s so funny that you liked the Halloween episode.
Maureen: I know. I was like, I love that one.
Heather: We, we like it and it was like, kind of cricket, so, yay.
All right, well thank you all so much for listening to another episode of the Milk Minute podcast. You know, the way
Maureen: that we changed this big system this patriarchal system that was really not made to benefit any of us is by educating ourselves and our friends and our family and spreading the word about these amazing educational resources that we have.
So if you valued this episode or any other one you’ve ever heard, please let people know about our podcast. And
Heather: if you want some more behind the scenes, you can hit us up on patreon.com/milk minute podcast. And there you’ll actually get access to our other podcast called Beyond the Boot. Yes, our
Maureen: exclusive.
Subscription only podcast. Yeah. Where you get to hear about Heather’s coochie all the time. Yeah. Put
Heather: that on Reddit. No, don’t put that on Reddit. Alright, we’ll talk to you later folks. Bye. Bye.
