Transcript:
*We apologize for any typos, misspellings or incorrect grammar. Our transcript is auto-generated by software that’s trying its best, just like all of us.*
Maureen: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Milk Minute.
Heather: Welcome, welcome. We have a very exciting guest for you today, Dr. Toya, OBGYN
Maureen: Yeah, I’m sure some of you guys follow her on TikTok or have seen some of her stuff. I’m super excited to have her as a guest because she seems really fun and super smart and that’s like our thing, you know?
Heather: Yeah, and she’s just so cute. And easy to talk to, and she has this incredible mission to make postpartum better in the United States. Revolutionary, really. And I think that, you know, it’s nice, For us, selfishly, to have an OB GYN point of view.
Maureen: I think it’s our first OB on the show, which feels like naughty. Like, I can’t believe it’s been this long.
Heather: I feel bad about it, kind of.
Maureen: Me too! Me too, but you know what? Let me just, let me just introduce who she is first, because we’re just gonna get on the tangent. Dr. Latoya Lisa Sampson is a board certified OB GYN.
But she’s also a wife and a mother and she’s from the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, but she lives and works in the United States now. She has over 10 years of experience with obstetrics and this is why she’s our kind of gal. She’s an entrepreneur, a speaker, and a bestselling author.
Heather: That’s right. Doing it all.
Maureen: Absolutely. And so she has some of her latest stuff she’s been doing. She founded an organization called Buy Default, which is like a directory of black business owners and professionals who cater to the black community and Amina OB GYN consultants, which is like an independent contracting company that provides hospital based OB GYN services.
And she has a new postpartum support program that we’re going to talk to her about today. This lady’s on fire y’all.
Heather: She’s on fire and also has a nine month old. No big deal.
Maureen: Yeah, and I just I really, really love when we can connect with other professionals. One, who are just in our line of work of like birth and postpartum and all that, and who are also parents and who are running their own businesses and just doing too much.
Like that’s Those, those are our friends.
Heather: Yep. Those are our people. We, we bring them onto the show and then we adopt them. And then we, we try to be their friends forever and we help each other. And I mean, really this podcast is great for you guys, but it’s also great for us because we get to meet people that are nuts just like we are.
Maureen: Yeah, and I’m excited to talk again about, like, Black maternal health disparities I kind of love to talk about that any chance we get, and that’s one of Dr. Toya’s, like, passions, so that is very exciting today. Before we get into that, though, we have a ton of patrons to thank, like, so many.
Heather: Yeah, hit me with it.
Maureen: Okay, thank you to Danielle Tierweller. Natalie Robbins, Kari Heggie, Sophia Jorgensen, Claire Carrico, Chloe Nicolaisen, Kat Davis, Jena Householder, Kristy Herlihy, Herrely, I’m not sure I said your name right, Aimee Tebay, and Grace. Thank you guys so much for joining our Patreon. We deeply appreciate your support.
We also have a question before we hop into the interview, and this is from one of our patrons, Sarah. So Sarah messaged to let us know that she has a 13 month old that she’s still breastfeeding and they just had their one year pediatrician visit. And she said that she is considering when I want to fully wean and I’m torn about it.
Sometimes nursing is so sweet, but at this point it’s usually toddler chaos. I’m having trouble really considering stopping because the pediatrician suggested that if both baby and I are happy to continue it would give her more antibodies to help her through the winter and get, possibly get sick less.
So she was wondering like, is her pediatrician right? Is that evidence based? Are antibodies still in breast milk at that age? Would it make her more sick to stop? So we definitely have answers to that. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. I mean. If the key is if you and baby are both still happy to do it.
Maureen: There it is. Yes, there are benefits, but you can wean and that’s okay too.
Heather: Yeah. And you can also wean for the times that are the most stressful. So if, if you only one time a day, enjoy nursing and it’s right before bed. Keep that one. Get rid of the rest of them. If you really dislike your baby using you for comfort nursing, when they get a boo boo throughout the day, then come up with a different comfort item, you know, and you can wean that situation.
Breastfeeding is a tool at that point. It’s not for sustenance really. So use it for a tool in a way that feels good to you and get rid of all the dead weight, you know, that’s affecting your life negatively.
Maureen: And, like, yes, there are lots of antibodies in toddler milk, of course, and, of course, it will benefit them.
But, if you weaned today, would you notice that your baby got sicker in the winter? It’s really hard to say, right? Like, we can say these things when we look at giant statistics saying, like, this huge group of breastfed babies overall got sick less than this huge group of formula fed babies. But baby to baby, it’s not always going to look like that.
So it doesn’t automatically mean your baby will get more sick, you know.
Heather: Also, there are some studies that show us that they get sick the same amount, they just recover faster. And I don’t know if that’s a hydration thing, if it’s a, you know, there’s too many variables. So your, your baby’s still going to get sick, friend.
You know, it’s, it’s going to be okay. Yeah.
Maureen: So really this is your choice and I, I don’t want you to feel guilty If you decide to wean, because it is absolutely okay to do that. All right, well, we are going to take a quick break to thank a sponsor. When we get back, we’re going to hop right in with Dr. Toya.
Have you guys ever been listening to our show and thought to yourself, man, I really want to work one on one with
Heather: Maureen? I do every day that I sit here podcasting across from you.
Maureen: Well, lucky for you and everybody at home, I offer both in person and virtual support through my business. And in my business, Highland Birth Support, I’m dedicated to mentoring you guys through your childbearing year.
So that could start with fertility all the way through pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum. I offer home birth midwifery services, doula services, lactation support, herbal support.
Heather: You even do miscarriage support. Absolutely, I do. That’s one of the biggest things that is so hard to find, and I think that your people that are local to you are so incredibly lucky to have this service.
Thank
Maureen: you, and I just feel really happy to serve everybody, and I’m so happy I can expand my services virtually as
Heather: well. Yeah, telehealth for lactation has been really important through the pandemic, and I think we just about got it. perfected at this point. So if you guys want to work
Maureen: with me, head over to HighlandBirthSupport.com and
Heather: check out what I can offer you. That’s H I G H L A N D birthsupport. com.
Maureen: Welcome back everybody. We are so, so excited to welcome our guest today. Dr Toya, thank you so much for coming on to the milk minute.
Dr. Toya: Thank you so much for having me. I am excited to be here.
Maureen: Do you think you could start off our discussion just with a brief introduction to our audience? Yes.
Dr. Toya: Hello, everyone.
My name is Dr. Toya La Toya Luces-Sampson. I am board certified OBGYN originally from Trinidad and Tobago. I’m also a mom, nine months postpartum and a wife and a lot of other things that are not important right now. So, but yes, I. I’m a patient educator and that’s one thing I’m very passionate about. So I do patient education on TikTok and on other platforms.
And yeah, that’s a little bit about me.
Maureen: Yes. And we’re going to make sure we link all of that in the show notes. So if you guys want to follow on TikTok or find her website or whatever it’s you just scroll down and you’ll find it. I highly recommend you follow her TikTok. I think that’s how I found you.
Dr. Toya: Yes, I, but you can find me anywhere. So Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, everywhere. But TikTok is my favorite.
Heather: TikTok is everyone’s favorite. You know, when it first came out on the scene, everyone was like, I don’t know about TikTok. And we were like, all addicted to it now. So yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Toya: But you know, it’s Instagram.
And I just did a post about this on TikTok. It makes me feel bad about myself, right? It’s very, it’s like very aesthetic and, you know, everybody’s all polished and looking perfect. So when I go on there, I immediately feel bad about myself. TikTok is very real and, you know, I can be real on it. So that’s why I prefer, it’s for my mental health.
So there you
Heather: go. Well, there you go. And you know, I, I hope this doesn’t make you feel any way, but really good about yourself. Postpartum to see me here, my unwashed hair, no makeup. My baby actually looked at me today when we were about to start recording and I realized she’s never seen me in glasses before.
And she was like, what is happening?
Dr. Toya: But you know, I looked at your hair when we came on, I was like, Oh, it looks so cute. Oh, see, It curls, like it looks all bouncy. It’s, it’s
Heather: curled from the sweat, but how’s it going for you postpartum?
Dr. Toya: Well, you know, I’m a little bit further on than you. My daughter is nine months and it’s, it’s been a journey.
It has been a journey. It started off rough. I had a lot of pain, like physical pain. Pain just because she was so big and I had had some pelvic issues during the pregnancy that continued some tailbone issues Yeah, so it was like physically painful and then you know mentally it was not great so I was kind of going through the motions and just like pretending that everything was fine and everybody seemed to be in agreement that things should just go back to normal like fairly quickly right just like nothing had happened and i including myself so you know we were all in on this you know everything’s fine i can get up and do whatever and then you know very shortly within Six weeks I was giving a talk on menopause, like in person.
I had all of these podcasts and speaking engagements and I was doing advocacy work, all of this stuff. Meanwhile, I was like super angry, like just that nobody was taking care of me. But I also wasn’t taking care of me. So I don’t know how I expected anyone to do that if I hadn’t really set the boundary myself.
So it actually like came to a head and I kind of hit, hit a wall and I had to like cancel a bunch of engagements. Some with like a week. notice. I felt very bad. Will be scheduled then? It may have been. I think so, but you know what?
Maureen: We didn’t mind. It’s okay. No,
Heather: we were, we were proud of you. We were like, good for her.
Yeah.
Dr. Toya: So that’s what happened. And you know, I, I was just like, I can’t, I can’t do this. And I had to really take a step back and realize that I need to take care of myself. And you know, when I told my husband how I was feeling, he was shocked. Like he had no idea. So. I was like ready to just not be here physically, you know, I was just like I’m going to take a vacation.
Y’all be, be cool. I’m out. I’m just gonna take a step back and y’all can handle it. And obviously that did not happen. So we ended up like going on a vacation, just me and my husband. My sister came from Trinidad. to help. Yeah. My mom was here at the time. My sister came from Trinidad to help her with the kids.
You know, we went, I got a break, you know, we talked, cried, did whatever we had to do. And, you know, I made a decision that now I’m going to start taking care of myself. So I got my public physical therapist appointment. Like I started, you know, setting my boundaries really saying, you know, this is what I need because I was not doing okay.
And just, you know, Realizing that I, I can’t do everything else, right? So I, like, I hadn’t rescheduled anything. I was just taking my time and then eventually I started to feel better and you know, reenter the public sphere. So, That’s when I first sparked my interest in supporting women in this time in the postpartum because I didn’t, I felt like nobody else should really have to go through that.
And that was, you know, at the three month mark is when that kind of happened. And I kind of reentered the scene around six ish months. But then even as I did that, it still wasn’t okay. Like I still, there were still things that were, getting me. And a lot of it was surrounding breastfeeding. My daughter is ravenous.
She’s huge. And you know, when she goes through her growth spurts, her requirement goes up by like one to two ounces sometimes. So I was going from needing four ounces at a time to needing six ounces at a time. So like, I couldn’t keep up with her, you know, the pumping and the, so I was just I needed extra support and because of my access as a physician, I was able to text somebody and be like, you know, I need help.
I had a pediatrician that I talked to every day, so I was able to navigate it, but only because I was an OBGYN. So I was like, well, What do regular people do? Like what, what, what are we doing? Because there’s no support. And even when I spoke to her, if I wanted to actually go and see her or see somebody, she was, it was like weeks or months wait.
Heather: Yeah. I experienced the same thing. And that’s, that’s kind of how I got into this field in the first place. I mean, I was a midwife, but then I had my daughter, my first daughter, who’s now Almost five and I had my nipples were all torn up and I had I was trying to figure out how to get help and I’m like if it’s this hard for me as a midwife to figure this out.
I can’t imagine how anybody manages this. And you know, I was just listening to the language you were using when you were describing this and you said you were realizing Transcribed That you weren’t ready. And that, to me, I feel that on so many levels because I’m like the last person to realize what I can and cannot handle right now.
And it, it takes somebody like Maureen, who was my midwife for this baby, to be like, here’s the list of actual expectations of you in the first six weeks. Nothing. Like, feed your baby, stop trying to go for two mile walks, you know, like really, what are, you’re not going to win any awards. In fact, you’re going to lose awards if you try to do too much.
And so I think that really the expectations for postpartum are super confusing and mixed messages like girl self-care. And then the rest of society is like, but when are you coming back to work? Right. Right.
Maureen: Well, you just launched a new program to support other people in this position called Beyond the Fourth Trimester,
Dr. Toya: right?
Yes, I did. And it is because of the second part of my journey, right? I feel like it’s kind of this disregarded stage. Once you get past that three months, everybody is like, oh. You’re fine. You’re no longer postpartum. You know, you’re expected to go back to work if you’ve gotten that much time off. And, you know, everybody just expects This reentry into society and like back to normal, but there’s still so much support that we need beyond the fourth trimester and because of what I was going through.
I was like, we need support. So I really want to focus on this time and also before that you really should. Be in contact with your physical OBGYN and like getting care and access to things that a lot of people don’t have access to. So, you know, that part of the journey I thought was important to focus on because I didn’t see a lot of focus there from really anyone.
And I know what I was going through, like you said, it’s like, well. It can’t just be me. So that’s why I decided to do it. It’s a 12 week group program and I really value a group because of that kind of community and the ability of a group to. heal itself, right? Because you have so many different perspectives.
You have people further along on the journey that can look back and say, Oh, well, this is what I did. This is what worked for me. They can look back and also see, wow, I’ve come, I’ve come really far. I remember when I was there, you know there’s that mixing of ideas in a, in a group that I think is really valuable.
And. It really all got started from that webinar that I did when I started feeling better and I was like, okay, five ways to thrive postpartum. These are the things you need to focus on. And I was like, Oh, I like this kind of group setting. You know, I really like this. So I feel like I can do this as something extended to really You know, give more of myself in that way.
So that’s kind of how it got, got started.
Maureen: That’s really cool. That is, you know, you know, Heather, this just reminded me, I, gosh, I can’t remember the podcast. I was on somebody else’s podcast, an Australian one, and we were talking about postpartum and she’s like, so how are your mother’s groups working there?
And I was like, what are you talking about? She’s like, Oh, basically the government there just assigns them like premade postpartum mother’s groups. And I was like floored by this. Just thinking like. That like it would completely change people’s experience of postpartum to have a group of people going through similar things just at your fingertips.
Dr. Toya: Yeah. And you know, I put in a plug, they do not pay me to say this at all. And I only just joined, right? So postpartum support international for anybody who is out there, they have free online groups. And what I really like about it is that. They’re grouped for whoever you are. So they have groups for black moms, they have groups for L-G-B-T-Q, like they have groups for dads.
They have groups for anyone so that you don’t have to worry about, am I gonna be comfortable here? You know, are they gonna understand me? And they said that the offerings for the groups went up during covid. So they used to have like four a week, and now they have like 16. Right? So. It’s out there. This is, this is a free thing.
So the government is falling down, but there are people that are providing the service you know, for free. My program is not free, unfortunately, but, you know. It shouldn’t be. You need to get paid. Right. So I, but I always like to make sure that people know that there are resources because I just found out about them.
And I, because I’m doing my perinatal mental health certification. So, you know, I. Was like, Oh, this is amazing.
Heather: We actually just got a chapter for postpartum international in West Virginia. So we finally have that and we, I’m, we’re not in charge of it. So it’s, it’s not myself on the back, but very, very glad to have that.
And thank you for reminding us to put it in the show. And we will definitely link that in the show notes for sure. Well, who are you finding are most attracted to your group? Yeah.
Dr. Toya: So, you know, because of my social circle, I ended up attracting people just like me. So, and you know, it’s this thing where people think when you have a certain level of resources, these problems don’t exist, but they, they existed for me.
So other physicians who are struggling, there are tech people in tech that are really struggling and it’s always at that, I’m returning to work. That’s usually the trigger, right? So it’s, you know, unlikely to be somebody who is a stay at home mom. Good for them. I, I couldn’t do it. Good for whoever’s doing that.
But that, that return to work transition is really when it just like all comes crashing down. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, I really have to do this. It’s about to be real. And that’s where people start seeking help.
Heather: I completely agree with the physicians. I have so many patients who are physicians, because I think the other piece to that is, I’m not ready to begin caring for other people again, because it’s You don’t realize, I think, how much of yourself it takes from you when you are caring for people all day long in your career, until you are doing that all day at home also.
And then you’re like it’s my fear that I’m going to go to work one day, and I’m going to be like, cold and have nothing to give to another mom who’s just like me. You know, so it’s like, how do you know when you’re ready to go back? I mean, that’s the question I keep getting asked is when are you coming back?
And, and I don’t know that it’s like a timeline thing. It’s like when I feel like I have something valuable to give is when I should be coming back.
Dr. Toya: Yeah. It’s so funny you said that. I, it just, Flash me back to a situation where I think I had my son at this point and I had a full day of the office and I had patient after patient that just had issues that really took a lot, right?
Domestic violence, you know, for trigger warning for anyone, you know, it was, it was patient after patient that just took a lot of counseling, mental health support. And of course I had to keep it together. Because there was a next, a next patient after that and next patient after that. And I was sitting outside with my husband and he said something, I don’t even know what he said, something innocuous.
And I was just like, it just like, it just came out. And he was like, what is going on? And I had to tell him, I was like, sorry, this day drained me. Like, I just, I don’t have anything left. I cannot. Like, I was holding it in all day from, you know, caring for these women, and it just, like, came out, and it’s so true.
It takes so much of us to care for women in this way, at these vulnerable times in their lives, and then we have to come home and do it for our
Maureen: kids. Absolutely. I, with my last child I took off of like full time work for about five months, but I went back part time. I don’t know, three months or something.
And I, the first few weeks I saw patients. I was like, wow, I just loved it. Don’t want to be here. Don’t really care about anything you’re telling me, which is so not me, you know, I’m usually such like an engaged provider, but I was like, great, I’m just writing it down and then see you next time. And, and that felt terrible.
And it feels so bad to like reflect on that and think like, I’m letting myself down, letting my patients down. I, you know, also like, we don’t have much of a choice sometimes you know, cause Heather and I both run our own businesses too. So it’s like. However long they stay off maternity leave is fine, except we’re not getting paid anything.
Dr. Toya: Me too. Yes. Because, you know, I left my full time employee job, and I was just doing independent contracting, so if I don’t take call That’s it. Yeah,
Heather: that’s it. Yeah. And then it also goes in the opposite direction where then you force yourself to go back to work because you force yourself to be ready. If you just jump in, you’ll feel better.
You know, how many times do you hear that from people where they’re like, you’ll feel better once you get there. And so then you get there and you are a waste of a human by the time you get home because you have nothing left. And then you’re, you’re like mean to your family because you have, you can’t be mean to your patients.
So every ounce of energy you have is going towards being polite, being, you know, providing practical solutions. And then you get home and you are providing nothing but irrational behavior and screaming. And you can’t solve the simplest problem, like where is the blue cup? And when you’re at work and you’re dealing with a very complicated situation and you’re doing well with it, People keep congratulating you on how well you’re doing postpartum.
Oh my gosh, you’re coming back and you’re just like rocking it. It’s like nothing ever happened. And it, and like, it just kind of gets you, like, I’m not sure what the word is that I’m looking for, but what is that feeling? What am I,
Dr. Toya: I don’t know what it is. It’s the same feeling when people tell me I look good postpartum.
I thought, and that’s, that’s a, a big deal for me because. I really liked my body and how I looked and felt before I had kids. So not even before this baby, before my son. And I was really particular about my weight gain during pregnancy and afterwards, just because I wanted to feel comfortable in my skin.
I did not feel comfortable the last time. And so you would think when people say, Oh, you look great, that it would feel good, but it just feels weird. It just like, and I don’t know what to say.
Maureen: You know, the one I hate the most is when people say it looks like you never had a baby. That hurts in a weird way, because I want to be like, Actually, I did have a baby, and it did change me. And I kind of want to look like that. I also want to feel good, and I want to look good, but like I, I don’t want to pretend that never happened.
Dr. Toya: Yeah, and it’s so easy. I feel like the perspectives are so different and I think that that highlights something that people miss about this time. You never know how people are going to feel about certain things. Some people are going to love When somebody tells them, Oh, you look great. Right. Somebody is going to feel like, well, I just had a baby.
How, how dare you, you know, and you just never know. So then don’t comment. Just don’t say anything.
Maureen: Just say nothing about other people’s body.
Dr. Toya: Don’t comment on your body and don’t comment about breastfeeding. Don’t comment about like, you just never know what people are going through. You don’t know what their perspective is.
So it’s just like minding your business is for free. Go to Beadaholique. com for all of your beading supply needs! Just, just do that, and you’ll be fine.
Heather: And then, can I just tack on to that also? Like, if someone comes to work, you know, at 12 weeks, and they look exhausted, and they don’t look good, and they are rough, don’t blame the baby.
Don’t tell them that, oh, you must have a bad baby. Oh my gosh. Because, because Susie over here, who’s 12 weeks postpartum, looks great, and you look like shit.
Dr. Toya: Can we talk about the bad baby, good baby thing? Because that is another, that’s another thing, right? And I, I find myself saying it as well. Oh, she’s such a good baby.
But what does that mean? Like, what exactly is a bad baby? A baby that doesn’t cry? And one thing I learned during my training for the parenatal mental health. She talked about a baby that lost, I think, both parents and would be, was being shuttled between family members to care for, for the baby. And the baby never cried.
And, you know, everybody was very happy. Oh, this baby is so good. The baby’s not crying. And she, as a therapist, saw it as a lack of attachment and feeling secure enough and safe enough to cry. And that just like broke my heart that that is even a thing, right? So it’s like, Why are we calling these babies good?
Crying is normal, right? Crying can mean numerous things, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the baby is in distress. It can be that the baby is safe enough to express itself in the only way that it knows how to, which is, you know, crying. So, Just more things for us to think about. And this is when I say us, I mean us, like when we say these things, what is a good baby?
Why are we using this language? And maybe just give it a second thought and say, well, maybe I shouldn’t be using those terms.
Heather: Yeah, or just ask a question like instead of imposing your statement just ask them. How are you feeling? Right? How do you feel about your baby?
Dr. Toya: Do you want to return it or are you keeping but you know, that’s that comes With the other question, you know, is the baby sleeping like don’t it can be so triggering for people don’t ask Just how are you feeling?
I feel like just Focusing and that’s like one of the biggest things My biggest soapboxes is focusing on moms, right? Everybody is focused on the baby Everyone we need to support These women, these people who have just given birth, ask how they are doing, because they need to feel cared for. They need to feel like somebody cares about them and not just the baby.
We are not just this prop that happens to produce milk sometimes, right? So start off with, how are you? And just let that be it and be really interested.
Maureen: Mm hmm. And truly, the medical model that we’re all working within is extremely baby focused. And, you know, I am preaching to the choir here. And, and we’re all, you know, working with these extreme maternal health disparities and watching people get two postpartum visits and everything falls through the cracks.
If that. Yeah, and their babies, you know, maybe are going in every week to the pediatrician and it’s just this incredible divide.
Dr. Toya: Yeah, and you know, I the only bright line or silver lining I should say with that is that the Moms go in with the babies and at least they get screened for depression and mood disorders at that time.
That’s my silver lining is at least somebody is seeing these people and for, I don’t know who’s getting two visits. That’s great. But most, most people. C section people. Well, yeah, this is true. But most people just get one and that’s if they even go.
Heather: Right. 50 percent of people don’t go to their six week postpartum follow up.
And, you know, I really think that most of the time they don’t go, not just because it’s hard to get there, maybe they don’t have a car, or maybe it’s their fourth kid and they can’t pack them all up and they’re, Partners back to work, but also because a lot of the prenatal that they had felt so rushed and so, you know, pointless that’s the word that a lot of my patients have used that they’re like, why am I even going to, most of my postpartum trouble happened in the first six weeks where there was no one.
I’m good now. So like, what’s the point in me going,
Dr. Toya: or you go and that appointment is also rushed and all they say is. Here’s some birth control. Some people like, and I’ve learned so much from being online, it’s another reason I really like what I’m doing, is because somebody made a video about that she didn’t even get an exam.
And I was just like, what? We’re not, we’re not examining people now. Like, what are we doing exactly here? Or, and if you go because you’re struggling mentally and you fill out this form, you are brave enough to say, I need help. I’m struggling. People don’t do anything. So they may not read the form. They may not refer you to anyone.
They may not have access to refer you to anyone. So it’s like, why am I going when this is what I’m going to get? Right? So it’s like so many layers.
Maureen: Yeah. I really want to continue this conversation. We’re going to take a quick break to thank a sponsor. And when we get back, I want to keep like widening our framework here and talking about, you know, our, our role in addressing these issues.
Heather: I tell all my patients who are brand new parents to put a list of soothing techniques on their refrigerator so they can both remember what they’ve already tried for soothing baby.
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All right, welcome back, everybody. We are going to now ask Dr. Toya about her work with black maternal health. This is a really important topic. I think we chat a lot about doulas and midwives and lactation professionals on our show, but where do obstetricians and black obstetricians specifically fit into this conversation about how we are improving outcomes for our patients?
Black patients. Yeah,
Dr. Toya: I feel like it is such a difficult and unique place to be in as a person. an obstetrician in general, when you’re interested in this type of work, but definitely as a Black obstetrician, because we have this kind of like dichotomy. I’m Black, so I experience the same racism and all the isms.
that comes with being Black in America, but I’m also an obstetrician. The, you know, I was, you know, quote unquote, trained with the tools of the master, right? Like, J. Marion Sims is like, I, that instrument that’s named after him was my favorite instrument when I was training. And I didn’t know anything about him or his history.
I just knew he was the father of gynecology, you know, and I love the Sims. I used to talk about it all the time. And so it’s like, When you become woke, and I don’t mean that in a funny way, but like a real way, like when you start learning about the history of obstetrics, when you start learning about the history of racism and white supremacy in America, and you realize the system that you are in and a part of, it’s like, well, how do I Protect myself and still give the care that my patients deserve knowing that my education was in this context and is lacking, right?
So it is a very unique, very difficult place to be in because it comes with The frustrations of being misunderstood because I’m an obstetrician. It comes with the distrust because I’m an obstetrician and the, I almost feel betrayed sometimes when people don’t trust me because I’m like, but I’m just like you, I’m black.
I get it. Or not even with, Patients who aren’t black. I’m just like, but I’m, I’m a really good doctor. Like, I’m not like them, you know? Like, it’s when you know how you think and you practice and all people see is the obstetrician, the person who has harmed them, the person who has harmed their family, who trained in this system, like, I don’t blame them, but I, it, it like makes me sad sometimes that the immediate feeling is distrust when I am just like, I’m really just trying to do my best for you.
Right. So there’s that. And then on the other side, there’s this pendulum swing because of the history of Obstetrics, because of the history in America, people are taking things into their own hands, which is great. You know, I love it, but does it mean that now, I’ve heard people say, I will never go into the hospital.
Again, right? I will never go back to another OB. I will never step foot in there to have my baby. And I was just like, that’s great for some people, but not for everybody. Not when you have this baseline increased risk, not because of your race, but because of racism, of preeclampsia and diabetes and all these things.
No, you need to step. back into the hospital, right? So I’m all for the empowerment and the advocacy, but I feel like the pendulum has swung to a point where it may cost people their lives. And it’s, this is not coming from a place of all home births are bad because when somebody hears an obstetrician saying This, that’s the first thing they’re gonna think, right?
That I’m saying all home births are bad. But it’s way, I’m, I understand that it’s more nuanced than that. I understand that it’s not all or nothing, right? But I also know that I am unique. Not everybody thinks like me, right? So when I am saying these things and I’m sharing my opinions and people react a certain way, I have to understand that they may go out and meet somebody who is completely opposite.
Who’s going to say all home births are bad. Who’s going to say, you know, make assumptions about them. Because you’re black, you don’t breastfeed or you’re in pain, and I don’t believe you. Right. So it’s, I don’t have all the answers, but I feel like we need a middle ground where the conversations that are happening, the advocacy, the Work that is being done to decrease the disparities and give equitable, empowering care, it has to include obstetricians.
And does it only have to include Black obstetricians? No. But we have a unique place where we can bridge that gap. Right. We can make it feel safe for you to come back to the hospital to come back to your doctor. And I, I don’t like to talk in absolutes and I like to be very practical. So am I saying every single black obstetrician is going to be excellent?
Of course not. Right. And I always like to make these comments because. I think that it’s obvious, but you know, somebody’s going to say, well, I had a black doctor and she was terrible, right? But yeah, that’s what I would like to see. Like, there’s a lot of work being done, a lot of advocacy, a lot of education, but it’s oftentimes without us as obstetricians and especially without us as black obstetricians.
And that. That can’t be the case, in my opinion because even taking, taking a step back from race, when we talk about taking back birthing, right, and we talk about making it a safe and empowering thing and being outside of the hospital setting, We always need a bridge. The best outcomes that happen for out of hospital births are when the access back to the hospital is seamless, right?
So there always needs to be collaboration for anyone, right? So we need, we have work to do on the obstetric side, and we have work to do on the non, you know, MD or doctor side, right? So yeah, that’s, I can ramble on and on about, about that. Cause obviously I feel very strongly about it, but yeah, I, I just, my whole thing with anything that I’m doing is collaboration over competition.
But here in particular, we really need to bring everyone in so that we can You know, take care of our people better.
Maureen: Absolutely. And truly competition really fueled by capitalism usually is when patients suffer, like that’s, that’s the heart of it for so many people. And, you know, Heather and I live in an area where it’s.
It’s very hard to find collaborative practice between midwives and obstetricians and, and it’s, it’s so sad because ultimately, while I might have a hard day, if I had a hard time collaborating with the on call OB it doesn’t affect me, but it affects my patient’s health, you know, truly, and could affect their overall outcome with their birth and their baby’s life and their life.
And yeah, it’s really sad. I think you’re absolutely correct in basically saying that we, we can’t have equitable care without collaboration.
Heather: And also, in the beginning of when you were talking about when you first started working as an OBGYN, how your eyes were continually becoming more and more open.
And I, I, I, feel like I had that same experience. So the, some of the ways I cared for patients five years ago is not how I would care for them now. And I think leaving room for people to grow as providers is really important. Black, white you know, we’re all trying to become more LGBTQ plus friendly and figure out that language.
I mean, it’s, it’s an exciting time. It’s a little bit stressful because we don’t want to get it wrong. But it’s an exciting time because people are talking about it. They care about being better and using better language and caring for people in a way that is helpful instead of harmful. So I appreciate you saying that because it makes me feel more human as a provider.
And I think when you humanize people, it, it allows for better collaboration. And I think that’s part of the issue too, especially in our state. We have OBs and midwives work very separately. And the, the teams that used to work together have been dismantled, like pretty much across the state.
Maureen: Pretty systematically.
I mean, hospital by hospital kind of fell like dominoes in the last three years. I mean,
Heather: very rapidly. Yeah. Like we don’t really have that many midwifery programs anymore. And so whenever you are not around people and they are not as human, it makes a bad outcome look a certain way. Instead of supporting people, it’s more like, Oh, I don’t want to be around you.
If you’re not communicating with people, it’s easier to vilify people. And I think again, in West Virginia, we have like 1 percent black people, you know, same thing there where it’s like, if we are not communicating with black friends and black patients and where it’s not part of our life, and then we have a black patient all of a sudden in front of our face, it’s like, okay, well.
Let’s start by communicating. Right. Are you getting what you need from me? So let me let me ask you that more specifically. How do you think midwives and OBGYNs can collaborate more effectively to help black patients and eliminate more of these disparities, especially in places that are maybe predominantly white?
But then we still have black people here. It’s just we don’t have them all the time. So how can we how can we be better and do better?
Dr. Toya: Yeah, first of all, West Virginia, man. Wow. Yeah. I actually, I actually have a colleague who’s Black who lives there. But I think, and you know, I just want to preface this by saying my PMHC training was like two days ago, so I’m going to keep referring to it, not because I’m just like, you know, but it was, it’s fresh in my mind.
And they talk about. cultural humility as opposed to cultural competence. And I found it was so profound because the idea that we can be competent in something like that is really ridiculous. Like competency means that you’re done. Like you have completed your level of training. You are finished. You have nothing else to learn.
And That’s impossible, right? You are not Black, right? You are not of South Asian. You are not whatever. So, they talk about cultural humility, where you are approaching this person, this human being in front of you, with the knowledge that you are different than I am. I have a lot to learn, and I’m going to be humble and not make assumptions.
I am going to communicate with you like you are a human. I’m going to ask questions. I am going to believe you when you say you are in pain and when you say you have a headache or whatever else. So I think that is the foundation, that cultural humility, and then also Being active, right? There is this idea of pacificity.
Is that a word? Yes, I think so. Yes, we’ll go with it. That comes with, well, I am not racist, right? I am a good person. I am, I don’t discriminate against anyone. But that’s passive, right? I believe in anti-racism. That is an active thing. So you have to actively challenge your ideas and your assumptions. You have to actively challenge your colleagues.
Because you may see things, you may be fine, but you know there are going to be people around you that are saying things that are not right, that are doing things that are not right. So are you going to have the courage to challenge them? To say this is wrong, you should be doing X, Y, Z. That’s where it comes in and it’s an active thing and not just, well, I’m not racist, right?
So when you take this active role in caring for your patients and you come at them with cultural humility, I feel like that’s a good place to start.
Maureen: Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing that up. I, I, it seems like that generationally like is our step, you know, to, to take you know, movements around equity and, and fighting racism and all that from a passive place to an active place where every person feels empowered to do something.
Yes.
Dr. Toya: Yeah. So, you know, I think you can ask people to do too much. Like, I’m not going to say. Go write your senator on March on Washington, like you need to start somewhere and you usually need to start with yourself. So that’s what I would say for somebody who is wondering, how can I care for my patients in a more equitable way and a better way is to start small and stop with yourself.
Maureen: I love that. And I think that’s, That’s probably a great note for us to really wrap things up on here. Thank you so much, Dr. Toya. This has been a wonderful conversation. And can you just remind folks where they can find you if they want to learn more or join your group or
Dr. Toya: whatnot? And I just want to say thank you so much for having me.
I love to talk and you all have been a pleasure. To talk to. I loved being here. So I can be found on social media at Dr. Toya OBGYN and that’s on all platforms. So TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, and it’s D R T O Y A O B G Y N and my website is the same. Dr. Toya, OBGYN. com. So I made it very easy for everyone.
And the program is called Beyond the Fourth Trimester, and it can be found at my website, Dr. Toya, OBGYN. com slash beyond the fourth. And we are. doing rolling admissions. There’ll be multiple groups. I also have a Facebook group called beyond the fourth trimester for anyone to join. The only requirement is that you are beyond the fourth trimester and it’s really just to increase access, right?
So anyone can join and it’s a positive supportive space. I was just telling one of my friends who joined, I want to encourage anonymous posting. You know, I don’t know if you’re on Facebook that much, but Yeah, we have a group, we manage that too. So a lot of people get frustrated when people do anonymous posts.
Sure. But I feel like I want it to be encouraged. So people can feel safe and not feel judged. Because, you know, if you don’t want to breastfeed anyone, you want to find out how to not do that. I don’t want anybody to, you know, say something. And to upset you or anything like that. I just wanted to be a really safe, empowering, supportive place.
So I invite anyone to, to join. And yeah, I would love to support you during this time.
Heather: Well, I love, I love that. And I love the anonymous posting because, I would use that because especially physicians and providers, I’ve got some dumb questions sometimes. Right. So, people probably think that I should know the answer and probably in my regular brain, I do know the answer, but when you become a mom and you are living it and you’re tired, it’s like, can someone just give me the answer to this dumb question so I don’t have to figure it out myself?
Please don’t give me any crap about the fact that I, I should know this, Because I’m a midwife. Like, please just help me. So yeah, I love that. I think that’s great. Yeah, you
Maureen: do. Yes. Wonderful. Well, we’ll make sure to put links to all of that right in our show notes so you guys can just scroll down on your podcast app and directly access all of that.
Well, this has been a lovely, lovely conversation. I’m so glad you came on the podcast
Dr. Toya: today. Thank you so much. I hope I can come back. Absolutely. Oh,
Heather: absolutely. Anytime. And I hope all of you go enjoy Dr. Toya’s program because I think it sounds like a revolutionary thing that we absolutely need in the United States and beyond, but specifically here.
Dr. Toya: Oh, it’s so funny. So funny you said that because like when I’ve been I’ve been texting all of my friends to tell people to share the program and the last line is I want to revolutionize postpartum care in this country. So thank you. Yes,
Maureen: we’re on the tagline. Yes. All right, everybody. We
Dr. Toya: will see you next time. Bye bye. Bye.
Heather: Do you have a baby that struggles with excessive gas, fussiness, colic, and general sleep problems?
Maureen: Well, I did, but then I used Evivo Probiotics.
Heather: Evivo is a pediatrician approved probiotic for babies that’s even used in NICUs on the gentlest tummies all over the United States.
Maureen: It is an amazing, unique product that contains a specific strain of B.infantis that we need to digest human milk oligosaccharides. Evivo.
Heather: That’s actually 15 percent of breast milk that your baby will then be able to utilize, whereas if you don’t have the bacteria, there’s so much extra in the gut, which is why American babies poop like 10 times a day more than babies that are colonized with B.infantis. I have
Maureen: personally seen this probiotic help my baby and the babies of many of my clients. And frankly, if we’re dealing with any of these symptoms, It is the first thing I
Heather: go to and the best part is it’s not like any other probiotic that we would take when we’re sick or taking antibiotics, where you take it every time you go through antibiotics for the rest of your life.
If you give your baby be vivo in the first hundred days of life, it actually colonizes in their gut and becomes a part of their immune system, which then they can pass to the next generation. And this is how we make change y’all. Evivo is amazing because it’s going to safeguard your baby’s health today and give you peace of mind in the future.
Maureen: Check out Evivo Probiotics through the link in
Heather: our show notes. And enter code MILKMINUTE for 10 off.
Maureen: Alright, welcome back everybody well, Heather. That was such a fun conversation.
Heather: Yeah, I feel like I just met somebody that I would like to go out and have lots of lunch and wine and dinner with. I feel like we could just ramble at each other about the injustices of the obstetrics world, you know, endlessly.
Maureen: Yeah. And how fucking hard it is to be a parent. Like, it’s just really nice to have kindred spirits there who are like, damn, breastfeeding’s hard.
Heather: Yeah. Breastfeeding’s hard. And postpartum is hard. And entrepreneurship is hard. And being a wife is hard. It’s just, it’s hard, but it’s, it’s good and it’s worth it.
And it’s nice that she’s putting together groups of people that are trying to find those gems and help you. work your way through the hard
Maureen: parts. Absolutely. Well, Heather, could you present our award in the alcove today? Yes,
Heather: I would like to nominate someone, and it is one of our new patrons, Chloe Nicolaisen.
And Chloe is an OBGYN as well in New York City, and she is just such a character, and I am so proud of her. I’m not going to give too many details, because this is, you know, I’m nominating her, and I don’t know how much she wants to share. But she has successfully breastfed twins. And so I think she’s, I think by the time this airs, they’re going to be well over a year of age.
And she did it despite many challenges, including the twins being six weeks apart. Yes. So, and, and the first one was born a late pretermer.
Maureen: Well, that sounds pretty
Heather: incredible. Yeah. I mean, she really nailed it. I mean, we, we met so many times and she’s just such a nice person and she’s such a good provider.
You can tell just the way that she, she treats people and the questions that she asks, you know, that she’s like somebody that I would. Absolutely go to for care.
Maureen: Yeah, I love that. But what award should we give her today? Let’s
Heather: give her the Twinning Excellence Award.
Maureen: Ah, I love that! That’s a great idea. Well, Chloe, you’ve just done a phenomenal job.
We are super happy to highlight that in this episode. And we hope you continue to just keep twinning.
Heather: Yes. And it was, and I love the pictures that you send me of your kids, so please don’t ever stop.
Maureen: Never stop. We love those everybody. All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening to another episode of the Milk Minute Podcast.
Heather: The way we change this big system that is not set up for lactating families is educating ourselves, our loved ones, and our providers.
Maureen: If you want to hear more, have early ad free episodes, get Beyond the Boob, you know where to find it. It’s on our Patreon. And if you want to join us for free, we also have a Facebook group called Breastfeeding for Busy Moms.
And you can join us there and we can chat a little bit on Facebook. We’d love
Heather: to see you on any of our platforms. And Maureen is still active on TikTok, believe it or not. Sometimes.
Maureen: Sometimes. Alright everybody, we will see you next week. Alright, buh bye. Bye.
