Transcript:
This is Maureen Farrell and Heather ONeal and this is The Milk Minute. We’re midwives and lactation professionals bringing you the most up-to-date evidence for all things lactation. So you can feel more confident about feeding your baby, body positivity, relationships, and mental health. Plus, we laugh a little or a lot along the way.
So join us for another episode. Hello, we’re live on the Milk Minute Podcast. Welcome back everybody for a very special episode. It’s our 100th episode and believe you me, I feel like we have flexed our podcasting muscles and earned this triple digit episode. I feel like we’ve kind of arrived, you know? Yeah. And you know, it’s not like when you turn 10 and people are like, never going to be single digits again, it’s more of a positive feeling, less patronizing, more like, yeah, we have earned this.
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we worked really hard and this was also one of those things other podcasters were like, don’t give up until your hundredth episode, like make it to a hundred, like, and then decide what you’re going to do. We were like, oh my God, we’re so far away. Yeah. But then we blinked and you have a nine, like, I don’t even know how old your baby is now.
Like a year almost. Oh man. Anyhow. So we did that and you know, now we have a studio and I don’t know guys, if you’re in the thick of it with your baby right now, just remember you’ll blink and you’ll have the baby equivalent of your hundredth episode. It’ll be like starting solids or walking or talking back to you or whatever.
Yeah. I always think with babies, I’m like, it sucks right now. It’s temporary. And it’s gonna like suck in a different way tomorrow. You know, it’s fine. Right. Exactly. Oh. But today we thought we would have a little bit of fun because we feel like we have come a really long way with our content and how we record.
And you know, this podcast we’ve grown a lot. And we were kind of thinking like, you know what else has changed a lot and come maybe full circle might be a good way to describe it? Is breastfeeding recommendations. Yes. Breastfeeding recommendations. And back by popular demand is the “Bad Advice by White Guys” segment that we did.
And I don’t remember what episode it was. It was the weaning one. That was the weaning one. Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Well, well, I mean like about half of this episode is going to be bad advice from old white men. Yeah. And I just, I mean, I, I thought it was funny at first, but I didn’t realize that people wouldn’t be able to get enough of it.
Anyway, so we’re just going to go through a lactation recommendations through the ages, the good, the bad, the ugly, and back to where we are today. But first. But first we’d like to thank our staff. The people that make it all happen behind the scenes at the Milk Minute Podcast. First, we have Cherie Louise Turner, our audio engineer and producer, who is responsible for making us sound really smart, even when Maureen burps and I say every two seconds and we have weird audio issues and tech issues and strange noises. And she’s been the one to kindly tell us you’re not allowed to drink when you’re recording. You really can’t tap the desk, Maureen, whenever you’re recording, because it makes it difficult.
Why don’t you try angling the microphone so you don’t have very prevalent P pops? And we’re like, okay, she’s kind of our podcast mom. And we just have to give her a shout out. Yeah. Thank you, Cherie. We love you. We appreciate everything you do for our podcast. And we certainly could not do it without you. She’s listening right now, smiling. I just love you!
Also we have to thank Kate Migyanko, who actually, by the time this airs is going to be Kate Kimm, because she getting married in February. Kate is the assistant. She’s our virtual assistant who keeps all of our little I’s dotted and T’s crossed and make sure that we are all staying in line. And she also is in charge of the member entrance to our breastfeeding group to make sure she vets every single person so there’s no creeps trying to stare at your boob pictures that you post in there. So thank you so much, Kate, for all you do.
We also have Bailee Miller with B Miller Marketing, who does all of our promo. She gets in touch with all of the mommy blogs to see if they would like to include any evidence-based breastfeeding podcasts in their blogs, to make sure that this information can get to as many people as possible. So Bailey thank you for putting up with my crazy ideas at all hours of the day and night and for constantly championing us along.
And then last, but certainly not least, we have miss Tiffany Goetz who is pregnant with baby number three, and she does all of our professional transcripts and between her and Kate, they get it up on our website in the show notes section every single week for you making sure that we have the transcripts for our deaf and hard of hearing friends. So, and also people that just prefer to read and not listen to our voices, which we’re fine with.
I don’t blame you. Sometimes I’m tired of hearing my own voice too. So we love you guys. Thank you so much for being part of our team. Yes. Think all of you for that, we deeply appreciate the hard work that you do.
You know who else I appreciate? All of our new patrons. Oh my gosh. Holy cow. Yeah. Our Patreon is popping you guys. Okay. I would like to thank all of our patrons, but our new ones in particular, because we’ve a bunch of them. Are you ready? Are you ready? I’m ready. Okay. I would like to thank Lauren Peterson from Seattle Washington.
Whoop! Felita Nobrega, Allie Goby, Summer Felker from Border, Texas, Sarah Kay, from Vancouver, Canada, Lindsay Hill, Kristen Mortimer, Alyssa Whitaker from Wilmington, Delaware, Lauren Klinger, Carmella, Jenny Cooper from Fort Worth, Texas and Doris Earnhardt. Wow. Texas is showing up and Vancouver. Oh my gosh. Seattle.
Yeah, actually, you know, what’s weird? You know how I like to look at our statistics from time to time, we actually kind of have a big following in Seattle. I don’t know what’s going on over there or who knows us but thank you for spreading the word because it’s working. I mean, I’m into it wherever you guys are from.
I’m excited to meet you, to talk to you on Patreon. These days we’re really trying to make our Patreon a priority for answering help questions and all of that. So if you guys want to have more of us at your fingertips, you can join the ranks of those amazing people and be one of our patrons. Yes. And if you would like to celebrate with us virtually, our friend Denise made us a cake and we are going to give you so many good pictures of Maureen and I eating that said cake on Instagram.
So please go find us @Milk_Minute_Podcast. You can also find us at that same handle on Tik TOK, which I’m having a little too much fun with right now. Yeah. I can’t keep up with your progress. Like you are blowing me out of the Tik TOK waters. Here’s the thing with TikTok though.
It’s like, if I have 10 minutes, like I, I can like go through my past videos and just throw something together and not have to like, think about it too much, you know? Yeah, but they’re actually good. I mean, I spent so much time stressing about like the theme and the beginning, middle and end. I though, if it doesn’t work, just delete it.
I have a bunch that I’ve put up and I’m like, ah, that didn’t work. Delete that. Okay. Yeah. No pressure. Done is better than perfect. All right, speaking of, let’s get this done. Starting with a question. Okay. Okay. So our question today is from one of our patrons, Rachel, who’s trying to manage an active nipple wound and a troublesome nursling who, got a biter, thrashing and biting and headbutting. And you know, everybody with older babies is like, oh yeah, I’ve been there. Yeah. Sorry about your nipples. They just like kissed their three fingers and put them to the sky in solidarity. Right. It’s tough.
So she was like what do I do because my baby keeps traumatizing this nipple? So my advice was if possible to contact her OB or somebody and see if she could get APNO, all-purpose nipple ointment cause it’s my fave. With Motrin powder, right? Take some ibuprofen, use nipple silverettes. And if necessary, just like pump on that side for a day or two to give it a little break or even like a feeding or two, just to be like, Hey bud, we’re not head butting, biting, or pulling on this for this amount of time.
Yeah. We got to heal that nipple. And just words of caution, if you do get the APNO, which I love, which is the best thing to heal a nipple wound that is open and sore and doing terrible things, APNO does have a steroid in it. So please don’t use this every day for a month because the steroid will eventually make your skin really thin and fragile.
And then you’ll end up with a nipple wound again. So I like to use this for like three days, especially. This is like crisis ointment. Right. Especially if you’re using it with silverettes because when you cover an ointment like that, it actually makes it more potent. So you should really only need about three days of this.
And then you should be in a different place where you can kind of maybe switch to regular lanolin then. And then if it’s not the case and it’s getting worse, you need to holler at somebody. Yeah. Like me or Maureen. Anyway, I hope that helps. I have the utmost sympathy for this, because we’ve all been there and hopefully your beautiful baby will learn to respect your nipples again.
Yes. And that wound will heal. Yes. Boundaries are important everybody. Yeah.
Heather, did you know I have an Etsy shop? Yes, I creep on there regularly. Well, listeners, if you didn’t know out there, I have an Etsy shop with my personal artwork on there. I have stickers, posters, t-shirts. But my favorite items are my surprise mugs. I have a couple of color changing mugs featuring my little illustrations of volvulus and breasts.
And boy, are they a surprise, especially when you give it to your boss that you do not like, and they pour hot coffee in it and labiaās abound. I like to give them to like my mom or dad when they visit for them a cup of tea and watch their face. And really, I think everybody needs these in their home.
So if you would like one for yourself or anything else that I make you can visit Etsy.com/shop/thewanderingwom6. That’s Etsy.com/shop/thewanderingwom6, but with the six instead of a B. And of course that link will be in the show notes. Thanks.
Shall we dive into our episode of historical breastfeeding advice? Going to be mayhem everybody. Can I just say Heather? So, first of all, Heather and I have a cute little shared Google doc and I was looking at it and I was like, oh yeah, she’s got stuff from like the late 19 hundreds on here, you know, like right before we were born.
And then I was like, but guess what? You want to know how far I want to go back? All the way to the Ebers Papyrus. If y’all don’t know, the Ebers Papyrus is this like ancient Egyptian tome of medical advice from about 1550 BC. And one of our, like, you know, best preserved things of that nature.
So I was like, what does it have to say about milk? Do you want to hear, Heather? Yeah. I mean, it makes sense to start at the beginning. So please take me back there to the time of your people, because I know how much you love this time period. Okay. Well, let me just say the older the advice that I’m going to get into, the less verified these sources for where this came from and maybe how accurate it is, but no one cares.
No one cares. They just want to laugh. I just had to preface that, okay. This one was interesting. This was quoted from the Ebers Papyrus, but of course translated. So it said to get a supply of milk in a woman’s breast for suckling a child warm the bones of a sword fish and oil and rub her back with it for let the woman sit cross-legged and eat fragrant bread of suste dura, while rubbing the parts of the poppy plant.
Okay, that sounds fucking amazing. Sign me up. Honestly, though, like, I don’t care if it smells fishy. Give that lady a back massage. Wait, hold on. Can you walk me through that slower? We’re softening the bones of swordfish. So we’re like, it’s like making an oil that’s been saturated in this parts of a fish.
Okay. And like soaking fish in oil, and then using that as a massage oil. Amazing. And then yeah, then we’re eating bread cross-legged? And then, yeah, I think we’re sitting crisscross applesauce, eating bread, rubbing a poppy. A poppy? Like a poppy plant, like caressing the poppy. Okay. I don’t know. You know, rough translation maybe, who knows?
All right. And let’s see, doctors are at the time or whatever the equivalent was, apparently tested the quality of milk by tasting and smelling it, which makes sense because how else are they going to do anything? There were noted many magical incantations for increasing milk supply, which I have to say, like should be reassuring to you that like low milk supply is not just a modern problem.
Right? That the Ebers Papyrus thought we should have incantations for it. That’s perfect. It was mentioned that milk from those who had a male child was considered like more medicinal and then used to treat adult ailments. And then all of the little boys died because they didn’t have the milk? Who knows?
Good God, probably not back then. And I’m pretty sure boys were like, oh, treated well, yeah. And the interesting thing was it was noted in a bunch of places that you could treat the baby by giving medicine to the mother, which like kind of denoted some understanding of things passing through into milk, which I thought was really fascinating.
That is fascinating. And actually let me back up because one of the best books I’ve ever read was Cleopatra, which won the Pulitzer prize. And, you know, just to be clear, Egyptians were the first feminists on record. So actually they had a democracy and women could own property and they could inherit money. And it was not, so maybe, maybe it wasn’t all about the boys back then. So I’m going to retract that statement and I’m going to put a link to that book in the show notes, because it’s amazing. It sounds like I need to read it. I can’t believe I haven’t read it. Yeah. Well, I’m going to say though, like I’m pretty into the Ebers Papyrus, as far as this goes, they recommended breastfeeding for at least three years.
You know, like the one funny one was a prescription for childhood incontinence was for the mother to drink beer and I’m like, ah, sure, whatever. Sounds great. I mean, the shit we make people do nowadays is like, stop eating all dairy immediately. Have you thought about not lifting any weights? Maybe this advice has come full circle because the earlier stuff that I was reading, I was like, huh, kind of checks out.
Yeah, great. New plan. Everyone, go get a swordfish. We’ll walk you through it on TikTok, and then start massaging a poppy. I was thinking of then like, oh, well we have some evidence that like back massages does increase milk supply. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. And actually, when I was thinking about was Subutex, like, which we will link it back to that episode we did on Subutex and Suboxone for opiate withdrawal syndrome. It actually increases your milk supply and poppies are linked to opiates. So, yeah. Interesting. Okay.
So next one, I was like, all right, where are we going next? Let’s go to the Qurāan. You know, what does it say about breastfeeding? Why not? Cause this is this text is dated somewhere around 600 CE. So you know, a little bit more modern, but still pretty old. And this had an interesting one, an interesting take on it, where it said that mothers should breastfeed their children for two years, if they want to and if it’s like mutually desired by both parents, and if they don’t, then they should get a wet nurse. And there’s no blame upon the mother for not wanting to, as long as they pay their wet nurse.
Oh, okay. And I was like, okay, I’m also down for that. That sounds great. Yeah. I, I was like, sure. Sounds great. I love the nod to no judgment. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that’s a translation, right? I can’t, who knows anyway. I, yeah, there is no blame upon you. I’m into that. Okay. Yeah. If anybody wants to clear that up for us, we’ll happily do a corrections corner, but yeah.
I’m down with this loose translation. I think it sounds great. Yeah. I was like this checks out. I like it. All right. What’s next? Probably not going to check out. Cause I’m moving on to medieval times. Now we’re getting into the white guys, aren’t we? Yeah. So let me just say like, this is the era of wet nursing, right?
Like, because it was not fashionable to breastfeed your children, like rich people didn’t want to do it. It also like fucked with fertility, right? And they just wanted you popping those babies out. Oh. So wait, did they know that it messed with fertility at this point? There, there were some texts that mentioned it.
Okay. There was one interesting piece of medical advice that warned against intercourse during lactation because it quote, troubled the milk. And if you were pregnant again, it would cut off your milk supply. Oh, and I was like, oh, that’s actually, I mean, not exactly accurate, but I, I hear you. I wonder how they came to the conclusion that it troubled the milk.
Like it was someone having intercourse and the milk started spraying and they were like, when you insert your penis, all the milk drains out. It becomes so troubled they lose it all completely. It’s all your fault. Anyway, the church advised strictly against sex during lactation. And here we see the church politicizing the female body for the first time.
Probably not the first time, Heather. Probably not the first time, but you know, the Qurāan technically religious, but they’re like, how can we be supportive during this time? And then we pop over here and they’re like, so how can we control you and manipulate your life so we can get more Christian babies?
Yeah, it was so. Like they’re, wet nursing was such a big thing that there were all of these interesting tidbits about wet nursing. It was actually hard to find information not just about wet nurses, but basically one thing was that like judgment on wet nurses was real intense because it was considered like common knowledge that a nurse could pass her characteristics to a child through her milk.
Okay. And like, so she had to have a good diet. She had to be a wholesome person, you know, she wasn’t supposed to eat garlic or strong foods and she was supposed to have like a good placid nature and a healthy appearance and clear skin and no defects and afflictions and, and like good luck in medieval times.
Right. Well, and in like Royal households, sometimes people even had like tasters for the wet nurse to make sure her food wasn’t poisoned so then she didn’t poison the kids. That sounds like a huge commitment. Sounds really complicated, frankly. I mean, especially back in medieval times when like one ingrown toenail could be the death of you, you know?
Oh my gosh. I know. Well, and, and there was this huge stereotype of like the lay about drunken exhausted wet nurse, just like falling asleep while taking care of the children and like taking advantage of her milk supply to get paid for that. And I’m just like, oh my God, this is sounding a little too real, mom shaming.
Yeah. And also it’s, it’s kind of a premonition for what they did with midwifery and midwives and all that bad propaganda. Like your midwife is drunk. Is this the person that you want delivering your baby? Look at this gross old fat midwife sleeping in a doorway. Yeah. Well, there was the trope of like the wicked wet nurse who would like murder infants in her charge while still being paid to feed them like. Well, that would be counterintuitive because you can’t feed a dead baby.
Yeah. Yeah, it was wild. Anyway. Then to move on a little bit more generally for breastfeeding, not just wet nursing, there were some folklore remedies that had, you know, advice to offer. Clear, of course. It was advised that you should wear gold or steel chain to stop your milk from curdling. Hmm. Wait, were they pumping a lot? No. I’m, I’m assuming they met like curdling, like in your breasts? Well, I don’t know. No, I don’t know. All of you that get persistent clogs, just wear a gold chain and see what happens. Yes. It was then advised that that would help in your milk flow and that you should only sip milk from a cow of a single color, not a spotted cow.
And then you take a mouthful of that milk, spit it into running water, swallow a mouth full of water and recite this like incantation. And that would like bring you good nursing luck or something. Oh man. People were struggling back then, but I mean, low intervention. I’m all about low intervention.
I, yeah, that probably wouldn’t have hurt anybody. Probably not. It’s the more egregious interventions that have long-term side effects that I’m like, maybe we should wait it out. Think about it a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I have a fun one here. So let’s, let’s, we’re moving onto the other end of the medieval times, right?
1500s. Okay. I found a good, a good little nugget for you, Heather. Ready? 1582, Italian physician Girolamo Mercuriale. He wrote in this, this text called, “On The Diseases of Women“. Great. Thank you. That women generally finished breastfeeding an infant exclusively at the third month of age.
Yeah. So that’s when you should introduce solids. And that by 13 months you should be entirely weaned. I just wonder, these men in particular, who have never breastfed before, why do they even care? Do they even spend that much time with them, with their partners and babies, that they would have an insight and do they do this just to have some kind of control and power? You know, like, oh, I feel like that still happens today where, you know, you know, doctors will be like, oh, I have a better vaccination schedule than anybody else.
It’s this new, crazy thing. And it’s like, they’re still getting vaccinations, you know? But it’s like, because this is new and different and I know better than anybody else. And it’s really, you’re, you’re just like manipulating people’s lives with very little data. Well, it only gets worse from there, Heather.
Okay. I actually, I was trying to look for some other tidbits from like 17 and 18 hundreds, but you know what? I didn’t find anything really titillating. I did find this great one from 1877. This guy Chavasse wrote a book, “Advice to a Wife“. Thank you. We all need that, all of us wives. Where he informed us that mother should not nurse for too long. Once the baby was past nine months of age, nursing them could cause brain disease in the baby and blindness in the mother.
Yes. We just have generations of blind women walking around from cave people times to now it’s just, if only these women could see they would stop breastfeeding. They can’t even see or read this dumb ass book you just put together, sir. Oh man. What a name? There’s one more. Oh. From a little bit after that 1916, there was this husband-and-wife team of doctors, the Saddlers. Saddlers maybe, and they really enjoyed blaming angry mothers for causing babies colic through their breast milk.
And that they, they warned us that if we engaged in worry, grief or nagging, we would run dry. Oh my God. Remain neutral at all times, women. Feelings are out this season. Milk is in, feelings are out.
This I don’t understand. I’m still, I’m sorry. I’m still thinking about all the blind women. Oh, you never, never gonna forget that. I would, I’m officially blind. Yeah, I nursed for too long. God, I mean that, okay. With my brain diseased children. With your brain diseased children. Oh my God. Okay.
You all might’ve seen this one circulating around the internet at some point, but I did find a Reddit thread on this, which I greatly appreciated. I love Reddit. Especially at 2:00 AM. I’m still trying to figure Reddit out. Is it like, I don’t really understand it. It’s just, Reddit just feels like the last vestige of like chat rooms and forums, you know. Like those were all the rage when we were first getting into the internet and just like, just talking on topics in spaces with, you know, and so Reddit is just feels like the last bastion of that. Okay. Well, I’ll have to piddle around on there a little bit more and see if I like it. It’s a surprisingly good place to like find the beginning of like a source rabbit hole. Do you know what I mean?
I’ll like go through and be like, Ooh, a Reddit thread on this. And then I like go through a bunch of bullshit comments and then I’m like, oh wait, this guy cited this. I’m going to follow this link. And then, you know, just it’s, it’s wonderful. And there goes your good night’s sleep. There goes, there goes all my night’s sleep.
TikTok and Reddit, oh dear. Well, this Reddit thread had a formula card from 1957. It was actually October 1, 1957. I’m obsessed with old formula recipes because they are like watching a car accident. Yes. So back in the fifties, I don’t know if you would be interested in hearing more, but we do have a history of formula episode that you can definitely go back and check out that we’ll link in the show notes.
But on this formula card, there is a beautiful pink, white, chubby baby in the corner. Cherubic little Gerber baby. And there’s like a place where you put your baby’s weight and you know, their birth weight and their present weight and how long they are. And then it gives you a little instruction on how to prepare formula, according to the instructions on the following pages.
Okay. Are you ready for this recipe? Hit me. Alright. All of this you could find in your baking cabinet right next to all the sugar. Okay. So we need, first of all, seven ounces of evaporated milk. Okay. Seven ounces for like any particular age? Just, just, no, I guess we’re just like making a batch, right? It doesn’t actually say. So hard to say maybe it is a batch because the next is 14 ounces of water.
Yes. This is like a pitcher of formula, right. Now we’re going to need two level tablespoons of dark Karo syrup, dude. The Karo syrup, I just, it kills me how obsessed with corn syrup this country is and was like, right, terrifying. Now we’re going to pour three ounces into each of the six bottles. So I guess this is a recipe for six bottles and we’re supposed to feed on a schedule.
Sure, sure we are. We feed at 2:00 AM, 6:00 AM, 10:00 AM, 2:00 PM, 6:00 PM, 10:00 PM. So this kid only gets to eat six times a day. Yikes. Three ounces, three ounces of milk. That’s it? Six times. 18 ounces. The current, the current recommendation is somewhere between 25 and 30. Yeah. Of like the good stuff, you know, formula or breast milk, right?
Yeah. You might notice that there are no vitamins in here at all, which is why all these kids were walking around in the fifties with fricking Ricketts. Right. Literally their legs were bowed out. So like, this is kind of funny because it’s a formula card with really bad advice on it. And it’s also kind of super disturbing.
Oh, dear. Yes. Okay. Now we’re going to skip over to the sixties. This is from October 30th, 1968. I found a Cabarrus Memorial Hospital nursing services instructions for new mothers. Oh, tell me, tell me how to take care of my newborn baby. Yes. Well, first of all, the explanation that they give at the top for why you need this paper is to safeguard you and your baby. Sure thing.
Initially, we are just coming right out of the gate with fear. Okay. Yeah, love it. I mean, every new parent is terrified anyway, so let’s just keep it going. Okay. So instructions for how to just be in this baby unit that you are going to deliver on. Number one, babies are on display at the nursery window from 2:30 to 3:30 PM.
Oh 7:00 to 7:45 PM. Please listen. Please do not ask to see baby at any other time. The era of nurseries in hospitals is horrifying to me. Yeah, you get an hour and 45 minutes a day to stare at your baby through the window. So good luck with bonding. Number two, baby will come to mother for feeding between 9:00 and 10:00 AM.
1:00 to 2:00 PM, 5:30 to 6:30 PM and 9:00 to 10:00 PM. No visitor is allowed on the floor or in the room during nursing periods, including the father. Oh, yeah. Sounds very supportive. Yeah. Do not smoke while baby is in the room. So I’m done with that. Okay. That’s good. Do not allow visitors to sit on your bed.
The bed linen must be clean for the baby. Whatever. And do not cover your baby with your linen. Apparently that was a problem. Back then, it was such a big problem that people were covering their baby with their linen, that they had to put that as number five. Hmm. Okay. Now here we go. This is in regards to nursing.
Okay. Tell me about it. We’re only nursing four times a day anyway, right? Exactly. Number one during the first 24 hours, allow baby to nurse for five minutes only. Oh my God. Okay. Like I know we’re like, babies don’t usually have to nurse in the first 24 hours, but Jesus Christ! Only five minutes. Wrap it up, baby.
Number two, on the second and third days, allow baby to nurse approximately seven minutes. Sure. Why not? That makes oodles of sense. Yep. Three times a day or however, yeah, sure. Number three on the fourth and fifth days allow baby to nurse approximately 10 to 15 minutes. Oh, well thank you. God bless. And then it says if baby nurses longer, it may cause the nipple to become sore and all those words are underlined.
I mean, yes, but if baby nurses longer, they might also get enough milk. Right. Now, this is the most important part. Okay. Now this is stuff we definitely don’t want to forget. I’m listening. It’s in all caps at the bottom here. Do not eat chocolate candy, raw apple, cabbage, nuts, strawberries, cherries, onions, or green coconut cake.
Oh crap. I am so confused about the green coconut cake. Oh, I know what it means. Green coconut is unripe. Well, why would someone make a cake out of a green coconut? You bake, you can bake with green coconuts versus ripe coconuts, but either way, I do not know why eating a green coconut cake versus a coconut cake would make any goddamn difference.
No. And how prevalent is that? That it needs to be an all caps. I bet it was one of those food fads that you find in, you know, recipe books, like just from that decade. Yes. And like, no apples, no strawberries, no onions? No fresh food at all, please. Yeah. But listen, at the very, very bottom of this page, it finishes by saying, please cooperate. Thank you.
Which makes me laugh. Yeah. So first of all, be scared. Second of all, follow our ridiculous shit. And last of all, thank you for cooperating, right? Comply. Yes. All right. So now let’s go to 1979. Oh, fun. Yeah. Yeah. Some of our listeners might, I don’t know, could be alive then. So yeah, it could be, could be.
So the American Academy of Pediatrics was a thing at this time and, you know, they were pretty important even then. Really? Yeah, probably not as important as they are now, but I can’t really speak to that. I’m just spit balling. Is this like where we really get into bad advice from old white men? I mean, yes, pretty much.
I’m like, so ready. So the AAP at this time in 1979 was so wary and unsure about breastfeeding, that they couldn’t even make a real statement about a recommendation for it. They had no recommendation? They knew enough to not make an anti-statement. Okay. So this was, this is what they wrote. Our current recommendations for infant feeding are based on relatively few facts and many opinions in a number of areas.
Yeah. In a number of areas of infant feeding, the crucial experiments have not yet been carried out. I don’t know, how about history? Yeah. And in some areas, our experimental methods are too crude to permit design of appropriate studies. Changes in recommendations are to be anticipated as new evidence becomes available.
Meanwhile, we make the following recommendations. No. This recommendation is for evaporated milk formula. Remember what year it is? 1979. Okay. Right. So evaporated milk formula is used mainly because of economic considerations represent an acceptable feeding for the infant less than six months of age. A reasonable formula may be prepared as follows: 100 milliliters of evaporated milk, 130 milliliters of water and 10 milliliters of corn syrup.
They say because terminal sterilization is rarely practiced and because neither it nor the other methods have proved effective in controlling growth of microorganisms and home use, preparation of single feeding seem preferable to preparation at one time of all feedings for a 24-hour period. Well, thank you.
Okay. We haven’t really improved from the 1957 recommendation other than to say, guess what? When you prepare it in a big batch, people get sick. So maybe just prepare it every time, maybe. Okay. Here, this one’s kind of funny. So feeding to age six months breastfeeding, any woman with the least inclination toward breastfeeding should be encouraged to do so and all assistance possible should be provided by nurses, physicians, nutritionists, and other health workers. At the same time, we do not believe that strong social pressures should be exerted to coerce women into breastfeeding, nor do we believe that any woman should be made to feel guilty because she elects not to breastfeed.
So right here, I’m going to stop myself. This is a direct attack against the feminist movement in the seventies that came up real hard in pro breastfeeding. So they, there was a really big movement going on at this time by feminist women who were like, wait, what are you, why are you taking away our power?
And like the fact that this even made it into the recommendation. Interesting. Kind of catty. They’re like you can’t advocate for it, you can’t advocate against it. Right. Don’t say nothing. Right? Exactly. So and it kind of made that movement look like they were being the unsupportive bad guys, which is interesting.
They kind of like gaslighted them right here in the sentence and it stuck out to me right away, but I’m sure, you know, it would have been much more prevalent back in the day. Oh my God. I can just imagine if Maureen and I were in the seventies going through that, like burning our bras and everything else, we would have been like can you believe these shit heads? We would’ve had a radio show. Pirate radio, cause they wouldn’t let us on the air waves.
That’s right. Okay. And then it also follows up and says, many women will find it nearly impossible to be present for every feeding and we see no objection to offering an occasional feeding by bottle once nursing as well established. If expressed milk from the infant’s mother is fed there is little, if any disadvantage. When expression of human milk proves difficult or inconvenient, feeding of an infant formula seems to us to be a satisfactory alternative.
This is a very wishy-washy statement. It is. Seems perhaps to be maybe. This is another wishy-washy. It is sometimes said that giving the breastfed infant a bottle of formula interferes with the success of nursing, sensitizes the infant to foreign protein and alters the intestinal flora. We are not convinced that an occasion or even daily formula feeding interferes with success of nursing and believe that some freedom of activity is important for the mother.
The questions of possible sensitization to foreign protein and have the adverse consequences from alteration of intestinal flora deserve further study, but do not seem to us at present to be strong contra-indications to formula feeding. I’m just surprised at all that they mentioned intestinal bacteria. Like I feel like at least one guy in the room when they were writing this was like maybe if we should have an escape ladder, just in case all the shit that we recommend doesn’t work out?
And in our history of WIC episode, we talk about the commercially prepared formula that had iron supplemented in it because they realized all these little kids were anemic. So if you haven’t listened to that one, please go back and listen to that too. We’ll link it in the show notes, but the recommendation here was an iron fortified, commercially prepared formula is a complete food for infants and requires no supplements, vitamins, or minerals.
For reasons that will be discussed we no longer recommend fluoride supplements for infants fed commercially prepared formulas. The protein source for most commercially prepared formulas is cow milk or soy protein isolate. All or most of the fat is provided by the vegetable oils.
The milk-based formulas contain lactose as the sole or a major carbohydrate and the soy protein isolate-based formulas contains sucrose and corn syrup. For the healthy full-term infant it probably matters little whether formula is based on cow milk or a mixture of cow milk and partially demineralized whey proteins or on soy protein.
Well, really? We have found that to not be true. So basically what I’m seeing here is they know it’s an issue, but they’re not willing to go full tilt into it. Like they had to make a statement on this is what it seems like. So they talk about an introduction of beikost B E I K O S T, have you heard this?
No, beikost is foods other than milk or formula fed to infants by two months of age. And this seems to be a thing that was happening at this point in time to the point where they had to make a statement about it in this paper. So they do also mention that these babies under two months of age that are getting fed, this beikost was largely in part, due to social pressures. So, and they also mentioned aggressive marketing by the infant food industry. Well, yeah, there was at some point in the earlier 1900s, like there were recommendations to feed your baby solids by day three and this, and they also mentioned a belief that feeding of solid food will help the infant sleep through the night.
Oh, and they, oh, they mentioned allergies. I don’t even think they know the shit they stepped in when they did this. So it says whether early introduction of beikost contributes to development of allergic reactions is uncertain. Our major objection to the introduction of beikost before five months of age is based on the possibility that it may interfere with establishing sound, eating habits and contribute to overfeeding.
Hmm. Interesting. I feel like we could spend a long time picking apart just this one publication. We could, but we’re not going to today. So anyway, that I feel like the seventies, like the late seventies is when the doctors are like, oh God, this is our business. Now, now we have to deal with boob juice. We’ve got kids with rickets.
We got kids with oral aversions and overeating. We got kids running around eating bacteria filled, condensed milk. We got, I mean, so now they had to make a statement. We got feminists up our ass, you know? So here we are. Now we’re in 1984. I was almost born. Almost, not quite. So again, the AAP had this journal called Pediatrics.
It was just Pediatrics. Don’t we still have that journal? I don’t know. It’s still there. I, I’m not sure if it is or not. Is it? I don’t know. I must, I also just look up a lot of old breast-feeding articles. I’ve definitely read parts of that journal. So this article from 1984, discusses whether or not they feel breastfeeding is the best and attempt to say that not all mothers are created equal in their ability to nourish a child with their body.
So, this is where we see breastfeeding drop-off a lot in the eighties and move deeper into the culture of bottle feeding and mistrust of the female body. So just keep in mind, the way the subtle wording in this passage makes breastfeeding look like a more dangerous choice. So it’s even like these seeds of doubt that are sewn within the research.
So imagine how that trickles down into the clinics. Yeah. And you have to wonder, like, what are the assumed biases, the researchers, or even like conceiving of their trials with, you know? Yep. Exactly. Well, so this first one says growth in infancy is a complex process affected directly or indirectly by numerous interrelated factors that predominant factors include diet, the nutritional status and health of the mother and the occurrence of infection.
Really? In addition, social factors, family structure, and cohesiveness, economic status. Okay. So like how do you explain people successfully breastfeeding in third world countries? Just saying. Cultural practices. What does that even mean? Some cultures aren’t as adequate for breastfeeding, like what? And biologic factors such as the sex of the infant, birth weight, birth order, birth interval, and genetics may also play a significant role.
Interesting. Nutritional factors may affect growth in infancy both before and after birth. Maternal and infant nutrition are intimately related. Are they? I mean, I feel like I could pick a lot of these apart and be like, yes and no. So like, yeah, they’re related in a couple of ways in that, like obviously, you know, if we have a mother or like parents who don’t have great nutrition, they have poor socioeconomic status and that’s going to affect the kids’ long-term outlooks, but maybe not for the reasons you think it will.
Yep. Exactly. So at this point it’s kind of like, you’re almost there, you know, like you did it. Oh, you towed the line, and then you just took a couple 10 steps back. Yeah. And this is, I just don’t really like the wording and the way they’re like, and if the baby’s not eating well, it’s probably because of the mom and her stupid culture and, and she’s poor and she doesn’t eat right.
And you know, this is like the mom shaming shit that I really can’t stand. So now I’m going to go to 1986, please follow me there. Okay. I’m there with you. So 1986, this was a study that I found. They did this study to help understand the constraints of breastfeeding in large municipal hospitals. So they collected data through direct observation, chart review, and questionnaires with patients and staff.
So they showed that breastfeeding had not yet begun within 24 hours postpartum in 37% of women who said that they had wanted to breastfeed. So that’s a lot. Yeah. So 1986. Maybe it’s because they were like, what if we took your baby to the nursery and brought it back to you in 12 hours? Yeah. I mean, who the heck knows at that point. They were still doing a lot of nursery stuff at that point.
Well, this one’s going to make you mad. Oh no. So a chart review revealed that at that same hospital at discharge, no woman was breastfeeding exclusively. What? Not a one during the study and, and only 16% of infants had ever been breastfed. And all of these had also been formula fed. Welcome to the 80’s folks. Just makes my brain hurt.
Yeah. So then they list the most common reason for the use of supplementary formula and early weaning was the mother’s perception or anticipation of insufficient milk. Yeah. Probably because every freaking doctor she’d ever seen was like, well, when breastfeeding fails for you, here’s your formula. What do you mean back then?
That’s still happens. Oh, dear. Right. So it’s, you know, and they even said that the existing procedures communicated the message to patients that the healthcare providers expected women to bottle feed. So here we are, and this is still happening. And they mentioned in this article, there’s confusion about drug contra-indications for breastfeeding.
So right around the eighties is when we had like a 50% C-section rate. C-sections soared. And so then we have increased use of medications. Were they using epidurals then too? Routinely in labor? Yeah. Yeah. So I bet they were telling parents not to breastfeed after that. Probably, probably because they just weren’t sure. Right. Right.
So they said that clearly the staff knowledge about breastfeeding management was inadequate. Staff underestimated mother’s interest in breastfeeding, and they recommended to facilitate breastfeeding, include a revision of routines and procedures as well as a provision for staff education and expansion of patient education.
Okay. So thank you AAP. Like, thanks for, you know, coming around, let’s just keep coming around and let’s just like, we still need to get back to the Ebers Papyrus. I know. We’re like, not even back there. Yeah. It cracks me up when people are like I’m doing this new cool thing. Everything’s organic and we’re going to just go straight breastfeeding.
And I’m like, so that’s not new. Like, we’re actually, we had to go so far left that now we have to go right. And that’s how it was actually meant to be the whole time. So, I mean, how are we this off-kilter? What have we done? I mean, like, I, you know, with all this, I’m extremely thankful for the advancements in milk replacers.
Right. Extremely thankful that we’re still not feeding babies, like straight goat milk or cow milk or whatever, or Karo syrup and who knows what? But that’s pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we still have a long way to go and I just, I’m excited for the potential in our lifetime. I don’t know. It seems like the biggest problem in the world, but also it seems kind of like, because it affects so many people, if we all collectively decided at the same time to just stop listening to all this bullshit and to just do what feels right at the exact same time the whole ship would tip over.
You know, maybe we don’t have to turn it with a rudder. Maybe we just need to fucking flip it over and be like, sorry, we’re not doing that anymore. I’m sure. I’m game. I don’t know. But then we’re all tired. That’s how they get you. The postpartum moms who are breastfeeding are too tired to fight for themselves.
We would love to change the world after 10 years of napping. Right? Exactly. That’s what I actually told my partner the other day. I was like, gosh, like I really need to get back to exercising every day. Like just feels better. But I think I need to sleep through the night for 10 years first. Yeah, man.
Totally. I feel that. I actually am finally back to a feeling decent while running, which is like a huge accomplishment. And I will toot my own horn because I did about seven beginner running series on the treadmill to even feel like I was strong enough to go longer than a mile without hurting myself.
Nice, good job. I ran a 5k today, not trying to rub that in your face. I’m just saying my kid’s three now. So, you know, you’ll do fine. You’ll get there. I have been getting out to ski some, which is nice. Cause we finally got snow, but it’s a tough one because I’m like not in skiing shape, but I really like skiing and I really want to ski, so I’ll just do it and then I’ll get blisters.
And like, my butt is so sore right now and I have like three blisters on each foot cause I like never wear my ski boots anywhere else. And, but also like he was really fun. Yeah. And I’m just going to do it every time it snows if I can because we have this amazing cross-country ski area called white grass, if you’re close enough to come.
That has just like such a wonderful community and it’s the kind of place I can be like, I dunno where my older kid is, but he’s fine. Everybody here knows him. It’s not a big deal. He’ll come back. Oh, that’s awesome. That sounds like a great way to spend a celebration of our hundredth episode. I celebrated our hundredth episode today by getting my giant Oak tree in the backyard chopped down.
We hired Brian Stocking. I’ll give him a shout out because he is the nicest guy. And I will put this video on Instagram and Tik TOK because this tree is massive and it had a sister that was attached to it that fell down on its own a few months ago. And so this, the part that was left standing actually started to split and it was going to hit our kids’ playhouse.
And I was like, you know what? We’d like to keep all the children that we made. Yeah. Not get them squished by a tree. You don’t need to make new ones. So we just decided we’re going to fell that tree and move on with our lives. So it was very cool. And I will put it on all the places for you to see. It’s very dramatic because you also live like off of a very steep hill so yes. And you know that thing split right in half when it fell so right where it was splitting, it was like, yeah. Oh gosh, what a rush!
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Well, that sounds amazing. I do also like that they’re gluten free, soy free, dairy free, and non-GMO. Plus they’re made in the USA and when you buy Liquid IV, they give back to communities in need. Yeah, they donate worldwide, which I love. Also, they don’t come in plastic bottles. They come in little packages that you mix in your water bottle and that keeps plastic bottles out of landfills.
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So let’s do an award. Who’s going to get our hundredth episode award? Ooh, who gets an award today? I’ll tell you right now who’s gonna get the award. Award in the alcove, not in an alcove though. I’m in a closet. Okay guys, this one is actually very funny. So Maureen posted a picture of her daughter nursing while holding her chap stick. It’s like her comfort item, guys.
Do you want to talk about that? Like how did that even happen? Well, I always have chap stick nearby because I have, I need chap stick cause I’m dry. And she just like picked it up one day and did not put it down. She just squeezes it while nursing? It’s just, it’s like exactly fits in the palm of her hand. You know, like, like kind of like a lighter fits into like an adult hand, you know? It’s like just a very nice size and she just clutches it and she like plays with it all day.
She, I got her in this new suit the other day and she wouldn’t let go. So I just had to like put her hand, her little fist with the chap stick, like into the arm of the snowsuit. Do you need me to get you an emotional support lighter? No, but I might need like a 20 pack of Burt’s Bees, peppermint, mint, chap stick, please.
The yellow one. She doesn’t like the other colors. Oh my God. So funny. Okay. So you posted that picture and we got a message on Instagram from Kaitlyn Maloney, who’s one of our listeners and Kaitlyn sends me a picture of her baby nursing, holding a tampon and was laughing and said that this was her baby’s emotional support item during nursing.
And she said, I’m obsessed with your podcast, huge fan. I’m going on one-year breastfeeding and started listening to your podcast around five months postpartum and I wish I knew about it sooner. I literally tell all my friends who are pregnant to start listening before, or at least as soon as the baby comes, but such a game changer for our breastfeeding journey. So thank you both.
Aw my God, Kaitlyn, that picture is so cute and I hope you’ll let me put it on our Instagram stories highlights for you. So we have a lot to celebrate in this picture. First of all, that you identified that your baby likes to hold that. And that probably is going to help with behavior issues at the breast if it gives them something tangible to do, which is super cool that you were that intuitive with your baby. And also you’ve been nursing for a year, which is freaking amazing, so good job. And like, I just, I, it warms my heart to hear from people that they love the podcast and that they tell their friends.
And I feel like we have a very dedicated fan here. We do. Let’s give her the Magnificent Megaphone Award. Oh, yay. Thanks for amplifying us and telling all your friends about us. Yes. Yes. And that also gives me a cute idea for a little sticker to put on the Instagram story. Well, thank you so much for all of that and for telling your friends and to everybody else out there who helps spread the word about our podcast, because all we really want is like, for everybody, anywhere who needs help feeding their baby to just get it and we want to help.
Yeah. That’s really all we want. And if you feel like you’re not getting what you need, you are absolutely entitled to demand more or just demand change. And if you have any questions about your worth or weird recommendations, please let us know. I’m just gonna say like, if you’re questioning your worth, just hold on for a second. I love you. You’re amazing. You’re doing a great fucking job. And if anybody tells you any differently, you can have them call me. Yeah. They’re not on our team. You’re on our team. We got you.
Anyway, we’re so proud of you for tuning in today and listening and for doing your very best to take care of your baby. Whether you are exclusively breastfeeding, whether you are now exclusively formula feeding, whatever you’re doing. If you’re listening to this today, and you’re a part of our community, you are invested in having a healthy baby and a healthy family and a healthy you. So good job.
Yeah, absolutely crushing it. All of you. And we couldn’t love you more. Well, that’s the end of our episode. Thank you so much for listening to another episode, the hundredth episode of the Milk Minute Podcast.
As usual, if you listened today and you were like, well, that’s the tits, you should consider joining our Patreon like all of those amazing people we thanked up top or telling a friend about us. Yeah. Telling a friend is the best way to help us achieve our mission. And our mission is to help more people breastfeed. All right, everybody, we will see you next time for 101, a hundred and first, a hundred and first episodes. I like that better. Goodbye.
